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George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

electrek.co

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Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#421

Post by im_down_w_otp »

Animats wrote: post #283
Analemma_ wrote: post #16

He's currently throwing a temper tantrum on Twitter, and all because the NHTSA wanted to ask him a few questions about the product (you can see it here: https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special... ). Like, how dare the government try to have basic standards for multi-ton hunks of metal hurtling down the highway without human input. I've been trying to convince people lately that Silicon Valley isn…

Holtz's Twitter rant is at [1]. Cruise Automation was very lucky to be acquired by GM before they got a similar letter. Similarly, Otto being acquired by Uber. They were both proposing to sell similar add-on systems. Their valuations would have been much lower after receiving such letters. NHTSA has it right. "It is insufficient to assert, as you do, that 'your product does not remove any of the driver responsibiliti…

Also, Tesla likely has many dozens of millions of drive miles into validating their perception and control models. Comma.ai does not.

The level of rigor Tesla has applied to this problem, as cavalier as it may seem at times in the news, is many, many times that which was applied to what Comma.ai is building.

Tesla's mode == aggressive, but diligent.

Comma's mode == aggressive, and flippant.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#422

Post by jahewson »

BurningFrog wrote: post #131
Analemma_ wrote: post #16

He's currently throwing a temper tantrum on Twitter, and all because the NHTSA wanted to ask him a few questions about the product (you can see it here: https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special... ). Like, how dare the government try to have basic standards for multi-ton hunks of metal hurtling down the highway without human input. I've been trying to convince people lately that Silicon Valley isn…

If you read the letter, it's a lot more than "answering a few questions". He gets two weeks to provide an enormous amount of detailed information about the product, I assume under threat of legal consequences if any of it contains an error, interspersed with lots of reminders that they can and will close down his business if they feel like it.

First of all, he's not being asked for an "enormous amount of detailed information". He's being asked some really simple questions about how his product complies with existing regulatory requirements. Which apparently, it doesn't. Worse still, by abandoning the product he's made it clear that he had no intention of complying with existing regulations and has an astounding disregard for his customer's safety.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#423

Post by optionalparens »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #330
mikeryan wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google I'm totally cool with. They've been at this a long time and still don't seem very close to actually releasing a product. I like Tesla's and what Elon's accomplished has been impressive but he seems hellbent on "winning the race" to release a self driving car and that worries me.

I wish it were possible to buy a Tesla without any autopilot features except basic cruise control, because I know how damnably difficult the edge cases are for a self-driving car, and I'm perfectly capable of driving a car manually, thank you very much. Tesla's cars are so good I'd almost be willing to pay more for one without autopilot. Almost.

Reminds me of wanting to buy a TV without all the "smart" stuff. In that situation modularity is preferred by most people with at least minimal tech-inclination. I actually encountered some cases of manufacturers charging more for a lesser, non-smart panel.

A car is a bit more complicated to leave stuff out I am sure and the volumes far different. It would likely require at least more resources to have separate parts of lines for some of that as well as different check procedures as so on. But like you said, paying more could help offset that, though it's a gamble for the manufacturer.

I'm more in the camp of please do not release anything driving a car until you guys can figure out how to secure basic software, keep websites running, parse input properly, and so on. In other words, I'd rather them wait decades if that's what it takes.

Personally, I'd rather be killed by a person rather than a person's dumb choice trusting technology. What concerns me in all these situations is that I did not at any point agree or vote to allow someone in a self-driving car to drive on the same road as me. Until they can mathematically prove 100% it is safe in all conditions and situations, I'm not buying things like "driver assist" if a big part of the justification is that AI is better than a human driver (if so, then why assist?). Others may disagree, so be it - I'm a weird guy. I also hate cruise control. And fat-free ice cream.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#425

Post by stale2002 »

sangnoir wrote: post #350
stale2002 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, as of this moment, self driving cars are much safer than human drivers. Every accident that happens and person who dies is a death that could have been easily prevented if companies had been allowed to go to market last year.

> Right now, as of this moment, self driving cars are much safer than human drivers Maybe if you limit the scope to the sunny streets of California. Maybe . Yours is a ridiculous statement that is not backed by any facts. Humans are adept at driving in conditions that self driving cars are incapable of handleing. How many self-driven miles have been logged in torrential downpours and on snowed-over roads?

If self driving cars aren't good at driving in the rain, then you can just NOT drive them in the rain.

Even in sunny conditions, humans are still bad at driving.

If half of our driving time can be replaced with safer self driving, that is still a huge win.

You still save lives when you make safe driving conditions (sunny California) even safer.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#426

Post by optionalparens »

devy wrote: post #110
hangonhn wrote: post #25

Wow. If he really moves his project to China to take advantage of a lax regulatory environment even though he couldn't pass the scrutiny in the US, he's being very immoral and cavalier about people's lives in China. I don't understand how a startup like Cruise can get past this regulatory hurlde in the US but Hotz can't.

I am no expert in Chinese transportation laws and regulations. But I wouldn't say it's a lax environment there - it's more ad hoc to be more accurate as I've seen regulation coming out from time to time in response to events. On the other hand, Shenzhen is the world capital of electronic / hardware components sourcing, manufacturing & production. Geohot's trip to Shenzhen may or maynot be an indication of his intenti…

I assume he was just visiting for manufacturing purposes.

What's interesting in China is they have in the past executed people for white collar crime in addition to regulatory officials as well. This though can happen for a variety of reasons unrelated to regulation, rather corruption, being in a rival faction of the wrong people, etc. Anyway, I am not saying it happens a lot or every day, but rather it seems tolerance with regard to regulators and corporations is not necessarily unlimited, especially depending on who's pockets you are lining and where you are from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Xiaoyu

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#427

Post by AceJohnny2 »

ceterum_censeo wrote: post #416
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should add, by the way, that while Teslas have onboard radar, it is not a primary sensor, but a secondary discriminating sensor. This was admitted by Musk on Twitter following the fatal crash in Florida: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/748625979271045121

It was a secondary discriminating sensor, but the latest Autopilot 8 upgrade retasks radar to be "a primary control sensor without requiring the camera to confirm visual image recognition": https://www.tesla.com/blog/upgrading-autopilot-seeing-world-...

Indeed. And I absolutely do not trust them on it. Their radar hardware just isn't good enough to reliably do that.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#428

Post by quakeguy »

abduhl wrote: post #419
zeveb wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's an obvious part of a government's duty to keep it's citizens safe. Which article of the Constitution is that? I don't seem to recall it.

I believe it's in the Preamble: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Keeping its citizens safe would likely fall under general…

Correct.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#429

Post by jahewson »

kefka wrote: post #294
smallnamespace wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would you have the regulator do here--wait until the product is on the market first? He's publicly stated they were aiming for year-end release.

That may be what he stated. I can say that I plan to launch pigs from a catapult tomorrow. Doesn't make it true. I would understand filing that documentation prior to selling. But I'm also familiar with using "Filing with govt" as a tool of oppression that large companies try to pass as a barrier of market entry. Lawyers are rather expensive, and requiring more volumnous paperwork requires more lawyers. And speaking…

So it's ok for people to die because a business couldn't be bothered to test if their product passed the most basic of safety criteria? Because that's what you're saying.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#430

Post by BurningFrog »

smallnamespace wrote: post #386
BurningFrog wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under Rule of Law, one set of humans write the laws. If you break them another set of humans decide on your guilt and punishment. Set 1 (legislators) can and do write laws to favor and disfavor individual actors, and I agree that that is in part unavoidable. Set 2 (judges and juries) are appointed randomly after it's become a legal matter, so it's impossible for any inappropriate influence in either direction before…

> no "set 3" of regulators that issue orders during the day-to-day running of the business You mentioned 2 branches of government, the legislative and judicial. But the third branch, the executive, does (in part) exactly what you described above. Taken to the logical extreme, your view means we should replace every government adminstrator with a court, including for mundane decisions like whether to grant a marriage…

The marriage license argument is textbook strawman. That is not regulation of an industry, and you know it.
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