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Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

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Re: Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

#81

Post by corruption »

_delirium wrote: post #63
corruption wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do Phd's really take that long? I've never know anyone to take more than three years of pure research if they are full time, but this is in the biological sciences or computer science.

That's the average from a National Science Foundation report, counting only active semesters (wall-clock time is more like 9 years on average): http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf06319/ [Figs 4-14 and 4-15]. It does include the years of classes, not just the research years, but classes are usually only two full-time years or so (less if you got a master's first). It's quite possible to do it in less, if things go right…

Yeah I understand how it works (I have done postgraduate research) - I didn't know you were including undergraduate/postgraduate studies, I thought you were meaning thesis only!

Re: Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

#82

Post by _delirium »

corruption wrote: post #81
_delirium wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the average from a National Science Foundation report, counting only active semesters (wall-clock time is more like 9 years on average): http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf06319/ [Figs 4-14 and 4-15]. It does include the years of classes, not just the research years, but classes are usually only two full-time years or so (less if you got a master's first). It's quite possible to do it in less, if things go right…

Yeah I understand how it works (I have done postgraduate research) - I didn't know you were including undergraduate/postgraduate studies, I thought you were meaning thesis only!

Err, I wasn't including undergraduate, just graduate. At least at the schools I know about, there isn't really much of a distinction between "thesis" time and PhD time generally. There's quals, but they aren't that important at a lot of places. Mostly if people say "I'm a 4th-year PhD student", it means they entered the program 4 years previously. They probably spent most of the first two years taking classes, though that varies too (I spread my classes over three years to have more time to start research earlier). I'm not even really sure how much time to allocate to my thesis, because there wasn't some official point at which I stopped doing classes and started doing thesis.

Edit: Actually, it just occurred to me you might be in Europe, where the norm is a three-year PhD thesis, in a pretty time-defined program. The PhD program norms are pretty different between Europe and the U.S. overall (I'm in the U.S.). Is that an accurate guess? If so, that'd explain the confusion. =] The U.S. program is fairly ad-hoc: you enter grad school and then there's various things that you can do in various orders, for various durations, depending on the school. Often you don't have to get a masters first either, so you sort of get that along the way, and you might be doing PhD research at the same time as that too.

Re: Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

#83

Post by format997 »

I tend to see this type of article and the associated discontent with a protracted adolescence quite a bit on ycombinator, and I can't understand it as of yet. Is their really that much research suggesting that an extended education and a delayed maturation really is detrimental? Or is it more of a shared experiential resentment? Or is it just a resentment at the lack of flexibility and accommodation in our current system, a system that assumes that one size fits all?

In some ways, I wouldn't have minded earlier exposure to questions that forced me to discover my innate passions as opposed to continuing to be fed prerequisite course after prerequisite course. However, I can't say that this is equivalent to wishing that I had started my adulthood at age 15 (or earlier). Modern society is more complex, as are the roles that adults assume in modern society, and I presume that a protracted adolescence serves to give maturing adults longer to find their place in this increasingly complex society.

Is the resentment founded in the fact that we force everyone to extend their adolescence for so long? Or that such a period provides no usefulness whatsoever?

Re: Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

#84

Post by cracki »

format997 wrote: post #83

I tend to see this type of article and the associated discontent with a protracted adolescence quite a bit on ycombinator, and I can't understand it as of yet. Is their really that much research suggesting that an extended education and a delayed maturation really is detrimental? Or is it more of a shared experiential resentment? Or is it just a resentment at the lack of flexibility and accommodation in our current s…

so you argue that it's okay to FORCE kids through school?

i wouldn't have been ready for the world at age 15, but maybe at age 19-20. now i'm 23 and i'm getting sick and tired of university. they don't even try to relate the stuff they teach to any real-world applications.

i realize that i've been depressed for a while now. it's affecting me physically now. i can't handle expectations these days. i avoid even thinking of studying for exams, which might be the third response of the fight-or-flight response. i can't manage my time. i'm always 20 minutes late to anything, even dates i set myself and that affect nobody else, even if i "account for" that usual delay, unless it's a one-time event and i'm making a real mental effort.

kids want choice, because they're not given any. expectations are the opposite of choice. i can't blame kids for turning out fucked up like they are.

Re: Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

#85

Post by cracki »

jleyank wrote: post #33

Don't forget there are some positions that require a fair amount of training. I guess if those in school because they're forced go away, it would leave a better environment for those picking up the background for advanced studies. And I see criticisms of the American model of college. Yeah, it pushes a lot of debt on the students but I thought the European model resulted in more years spent in college. There's ways t…

training, not learning. did you read the first paragraph? care to give examples of positions that require learning that isn't actual hands-on training?

Re: Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

#87

Post by cynicalkane »

Jd wrote: post #58
electromagnetic wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it's the worlds greatest deception. At 16 I was working as a reviewer, I worked as an assistant (note: not apprentice) electrician for a couple of years doing identical work to my father who was certified (on several jobs he did solely the testing to pass the work as legal) and right now I'm working in windows and siding. I presently earn more than any of my friends, and job prospects still land me at the h…

If you want to an Ivy League college you probably would not probably be able to say you are earning more than all your friends. I'm certainly not.

If you did insert X here you probably would not be able to say you are earning more than all your friends.

Re: Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

#88

Post by ahoyhere »

mechanical_fish wrote: post #19
ahoyhere wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hooray! Somebody who has someone with more experience and authority to cite than "my kid" or "PG says." JTG and related changed my life. I quit school at 14 and never looked back. And never once regretted it.

I quit school at 14 and never looked back. I'm not normally one to advocate my own career path -- I didn't leave school until I was twice as old as you were, and that was probably too long -- but just because you don't look back doesn't mean that others won't. School can be a lot of fun, if it's your thing and you approach it properly. For example, I don't regret having taken the time to learn physics. It's nice to u…

I didn't say "Hey kids, you should go drop out!"

Just because you feel awkward about your career path, doesn't mean you should conflate my personal statement about mine with advocacy.

Re: Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

#89

Post by stcredzero »

reader5000 wrote: post #2

Not only are kids expected to stay in school until their early/mid 20's, depriving them of necessary real-world developmental experience as discussed in the article, they are expected to accept decades' worth of debt to pay for it. The American education model is poison.

Rather quickly, all meaning would vanish from our work. Even if we enjoyed the activity of our job, intrinsically, it would rapidly lose depth and relevance. It’d lose purpose. We’d become bored, lethargic, and disengaged.

In other words, we’d turn into teenagers.

I am reminded of growing up in suburbia.

Re: Why Teenagers Are Growing Up So Slowly Today

#90

Post by Retric »

quellhorst wrote: post #54
cj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or take 3 APs and start your own business at the same time. It's doable if you're motivated enough.

It maybe doable, but your business isn't as likely to be successful.

That's true even if you have a great background and plenty of funding. Few businesses make more than the founders would have made working for someone else for the same number of hours. This is not to say dropping out of high school is a bad idea, just far more risky than successful people might think.
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