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George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

electrek.co

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Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#351

Post by rsp1984 »

fiatpandas wrote: post #288
Analemma_ wrote: post #16

He's currently throwing a temper tantrum on Twitter, and all because the NHTSA wanted to ask him a few questions about the product (you can see it here: https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special... ). Like, how dare the government try to have basic standards for multi-ton hunks of metal hurtling down the highway without human input. I've been trying to convince people lately that Silicon Valley isn…

That letter was an easy out for him. When you boast about your tech and it doesn't deliver on the promise (and don't forget the Musk challenge), it looks much better if your exit is caused by government interference than if you were to quit on your own. It's kind of less of a failure. Granted, it's a huge stretch for him based on the language of the letter, but that's how I read the situation.

It may have been part of the strategy all along. I always found the schedule really aggressive. He announced it with big fanfare in late summer at TC Disrupt with availability end of 2016. I don't think he ever thought that was realistic.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#352

Post by krmboya »

mikeash wrote: post #87
logfromblammo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I guess the first thing I'd do is file a FOIA request to see any Special Orders they may have sent to Apple, Uber, Google, Tesla, GM, Ford, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Audi, Nissan, Toyota, BMW, and Volvo, and for copies of any documentation received from those companies that would be responsive to the demands in their own order or the order to comma.ai . Then I'd also request an extension in the time to respond…

Something tells me that serious companies involved in this space never received any Special Orders because they reached out to and worked with the NHTSA from the start, rather than trying to fly under the radar and then being shocked! Shocked! When the government actually noticed them.

This seems to make sense, given how I'm in the past few years starting to realize how things actually work in the world..

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#353

Post by unimpressive »

skue wrote: post #192
6stringmerc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After working for half a decade with RFPs and SMEs, I'd like to politely clue you in that "knowing the answers" and "putting the answers to paper in a reasonable time" are two completely different monsters. I was paid a reasonable salary to deal with the gap between the two. It is one your comment so severely underestimates it's borderline farce. Sorry.

> I'd like to politely clue you in that... If you really do want to be polite, then it's better to avoid expressions like "clue you in."

And if you had a clue, you'd know he really had no intention of being polite. ;)

Phrases like that exist to indicate that one is emotionally dissatisfied but at a level where it's bubbling underneath the surface rather than something you'd like to display fully. It gives just enough plausible deniability of the fact for it not to become the center of discussion, while still unambiguously letting the person you're communicating with know that you're pissed.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#354

Post by BurningFrog »

smallnamespace wrote: post #316
BurningFrog wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They certainly could, which is part of my point. Whether they do or not depends on the honesty, bias, and personal ambitions of the people running the agency. The empirical experience is that regulatory agencies over time gravitate towards favoring the big established players in the industry they're regulating. The economist term is "Regulatory Capture".

> honesty, bias, and personal ambitions of the people As long it's humans that write and execute laws, this is strictly unavoidable. It doesn't depend on the particular details of how we do regulation.

Under Rule of Law, one set of humans write the laws. If you break them another set of humans decide on your guilt and punishment.

Set 1 (legislators) can and do write laws to favor and disfavor individual actors, and I agree that that is in part unavoidable.

Set 2 (judges and juries) are appointed randomly after it's become a legal matter, so it's impossible for any inappropriate influence in either direction before that.

And there is no "set 3" of regulators that issue orders during the day-to-day running of the business.

So I think you're right that this problem always exist, but in my estimation it's a few orders of magnitude bigger under a "Rule of Man" regulation scheme.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#355

Post by dexterdog »

makmanalp wrote: post #311
maratd wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did Tesla got a similar letter? Did Mercedes? Did Volvo? They have the same systems in place in production vehicles. Mercedes even advertised their vehicles as autonomous. http://blog.caranddriver.com/mercedes-benz-pulls-e-class-ad-... > Here are three dashcam videos of Teslas crashing on autopilot. Glad you had the opportunity to bash Tesla.

Yeah, they probably didn't - because large auto companies have time and resources devoted to safety and compliance.

And bribery

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#356

Post by sangnoir »

got2surf wrote: post #225
defen wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do I think Hotz has a viable product? Yes. (A comment over at Jalopnik linked to a Tweet where an actual human rider / journalist experienced the Hotz vehicle and was quite impressed) Journalists being shown demos in controlled circumstances are a notoriously unreliable source of information about the viability of a product.

That's a fair point, and we shouldn't over-weight one journalist's experience. However, I think that in this case, the author of the tweet has a lot of credibility ( https://twitter.com/AlexRoy144/status/791996855114694657 ) as the holder of multiple performance driving records. You're right that it is only one anecdotal perspective, but it's kind of like a prominent Apple blogger tweeting that a new Microsoft produc…

> You're right that it is only one anecdotal perspective, but it's kind of like a prominent Apple blogger tweeting that a new Microsoft product has phenomenal UI

To stretch your analogy: when the FCC sends Microsoft questions about the product's RF emissions, does the prominent blogger's endorsement really matter? Firstly, RF is out of the blogger's wheelhouse and secondly, hypothetical Microsoft ought to have planned for regulatory compliance from the beginning, or at least have the technical specs recorded somewhere.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#357

Post by throwaway4job »

6stringmerc wrote: post #98

Do I think Hotz has a viable product? Yes. (A comment over at Jalopnik linked to a Tweet where an actual human rider / journalist experienced the Hotz vehicle and was quite impressed) Do I think there's significant political pressure to have his product, ahem, driven into the ground as to not be a viable competitor to larger firms? Yes. Do I think it's a sign of immaturity to pack up your stuff and leave when confron…

Do I think Hotz has a viable product? No. It's worked a few times, for short distances, in very controlled circumstances, and it's based on a single-camera approach which seems likely to have a ton of problems with some common cases.

Do I think there's significant political pressure to have his product, ahem, driven into the ground as to not be a viable competitor to larger firms? No. Because I don't think it's a real product.

Do I think it's a sign of immaturity to pack up your stuff and leave when confronted by a small challenge? Yes.

Do I think dealing with the NHTSA (and potential NTSB) is a small challenge? No.

Do I think responding to the letter is such a burden that it's worth leaving the market? No.

Am I still a fan of George Hotz as both an inventor, innovator, and persona? No. He's a loser with tech that doesn't work, and he's blaming the government for his decision to overpromise and under deliver. If you disagree, let's put money on it. Because I could use free money from some George Hotz loving sucker.

Do I think it's hilarious that a vocal contingent here criticizes him for taking a "path of least resistance" (regulation) in his development and iteration process? Sorta. It's only funny because he's a pathetic hack who can't do what he promised, and he's blaming everybody else.

Do I think that people who admire George Hotz are morons? yes. I can't imagine why an intelligent person would think positively of him, at all. He's a pathetic, gutless, cowardly hack who couldn't do what he promised. Only a loser would love him.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#358

Post by AceJohnny2 »

phasmantistes wrote: post #223

I love this paragraph of the Request: > The singular includes the plural; the plural includes the singular. The masculine gender includes the feminine and neuter genders; and the neuter gender includes the masculine and feminine genders. "And" as well as "or" shall be construed either disjunctively or conjunctively, to bring within scope of this Special Order all responses that might otherwise be construed to be outs…

See also RFC 2119 that disambiguates the meaning of "must", "shall", "may" and others in specs. It's because of that RFC that you often see those words in caps in a spec.

https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#359

Post by [deleted] »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #265
ryanmarsh wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. There are a number of federal agencies that are a shit-show at best but I can't remember a time in my adult life when I was disappointed in NHTSA.

The NTSB also does amazing work, though it's the smallest Federal agency (~400 people), which I think probably helps greatly.

[deleted]

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#360

Post by britta »

DannyBee wrote: post #231
patio11 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your estimate of the required detail? Mine is 100,000 pages. Is your estimate, I don't know, only 100 pages or so? Look at their definition of the word "describe." This letter is designed to kill the company. That is a result I support, but, the people saying "This letter is designed to kill the company" are entirely correct.

Why do you assume this at all? You can respond pretty much with anything that accurately answers the questions. If they want more detail, they can then ask for it. I don't get where this strange idea that if he doesn't provide 100k pages, he's going to be subject to a fine immediately comes from. It's 100% completely and totally wrong. If he literally answers the questions, he's fine. If they want more detail, they c…

Yes, if a company receiving this letter isn't quite sure what level of detail the NHSTA needs, they could make a polite call to the explicitly-listed "call us if you have questions" person and ask about the expected scope, to make sure they're on the right track before they submit the final documents. Federal regulatory agencies are made of people.
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