Why Do Americans Stink at Math? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#231

Post by jomamaxx » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:28 PM UTC

devilsavocado wrote: post #214

jomamaxx wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why doesn't the preeminence of the US math knowledge appear to seep into the primary and secondary school education?" Because preeminence of top tier institutions (which are kind of global centres anyhow) - has absolutely nothing to do with teaching math to the commons. Here's a hint: +++ Americans don't suck at Math +++ There's a very un-PC but very large elephant in the room that people won't discuss. + European A…

This is a somewhat worrisome comment. It reaches for a lot of conclusions with zero supporting evidence. There is no need to bring up race or ethnicity to describe this effect of scores getting worse. Everything you attribute to being Black or Hispanic can more simply and more accurately be described by being poor. SAT score is most directly tied to family income, not race. http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/10/07/s…

" Everything you attribute to being Black or Hispanic can more simply and more accurately be described by being poor. SAT score is most directly tied to family income, not race. "

+ This is not true +

Even when normalized for income - there are still large variations in outcomes.

Again, I'm not really saying it's 'race' or 'genetic' or 'IQ' so be careful with your disdain :).

My friend - do you know the stereotype of the 'Asian who works hard in school because his parents compel him to' - well, it's not just a stereotype, it's true. Some cultures value education more than others. That will show up in the results.

Asian Americans are 600% over-represented in tech (i.e. 5% of population but usually 30% of tech companies). That's not some fluke - and it's not because 'Asians are super rich' - it's obviously a cultural preference. They are choosing STEM and tech for whatever reasons.

It doesn't make some people better or worse than others as human beings, it just means some variations in outcomes whenever you measure something.

This this is what actual 'diversity' really means, though ironically I think most 'pro diversity' advocates really intend to have a hyper-egalitarian situation wherein there is little diversity beyond skin tone :)

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#232

Post by joe_karn » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

As far as I'm concerned, higher national IQ, more discipline in the classroom and possibly a longer school day is why America 'sucks' at Math compared to Japan. May be more of one and less of another, and let's not ignore the negative relationship between mean class IQ and the frequency of disruptions. This is only up to a point - potted plants have very low IQ but aren't disruptive, but like American students they also suck at maths. Anyway, I can say to nytimes, without reading the article that panflutes and sandals can only help America's children so much.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#233

Post by tomc1985 » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

increment_i wrote: post #29

tomc1985 wrote: post #18

If they would teach kids to play with math (or any form of knowledge, for that matter), and not just run through 10,000 rote problems, maybe we'd rank better. Especially word problems -- most of them felt like they were written for students wearing intellectual blinders... if you had any modicum of relevant knowledge outside of the lesson oftentimes word problems were impossible to solve

Could not agree with you more. Another thing I've noticed anecdotally is that many of the math teachers in the secondary system in North America do not have a broad understanding of math themselves. Math is given the most rote treatment of all the subjects, and I suppose this is understandable given the abstract nature of math. But students are never told why they should care about abstractions in the first place, wh…

Hoping for your vision of the future, though hopefully through less SV-tinted glasses

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#234

Post by WillPostForFood » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #174

WillPostForFood wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article debunks the Washington Post claim about a majority of kids in public school being in poverty. http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/01/no-...

By failing at reading comprehension. There's a vast difference between public school students and school-aged children. In Chicago, only 10% of public school students are white[1], with a 45% white population[2] (for example.) Conflating the two things seems almost willfully deceptive. edit: [1] http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/At-a-glance/Pages/Stats_and_fac... [2] http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045215/171400…

What's wilfully deceptive is pointing to one city and claiming it is relevant to national statistics. The WP Article assets a majority of public school students IN THE US are in poverty, that is objectively false. So the reading comprehension problem isn't with the article I cited.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#235

Post by jomamaxx » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

devilsavocado wrote: post #217

blahblah3 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is disagreeable about his comment? Do you disagree that examining a statistic by subgroup could provide more insight into the question?

I don't see any statistics in his comment. I actually don't see any supporting info at all. All I see is wild conjecture. If he did go looking for statistics, he would find that the effect he describes is better explained by the expanding lower class in america, regardless of race. http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/10/07/sat-scores-and-inc...

Ha ha. You have be kidding.

It's widely known that Asian American and European American students outscore Latino and African American students. Nobody would contend that.

For you to indicate that there is a very specific issue i.e. 'poverty' that is the 'driving factor' is wildly speculative and outlandish - a fetish of your ideology - and and the 'impetus' is upon you to prove it one way or another.

My presumption of 'ethnicity' is much better because it would include 'average income' as a natural outcome of an ethnic groups situation regarding education, racism, poverty etc.. And FYI - 'average income' would be a function of ethnic attitudes overall.

Nobody would deny that 'income' has some effect on test scores - but my friend - you have to grasp the obvious reality that cultures who don't value 'education' will have significantly lower incomes, and more likely to be in poverty. 'Poverty' is the result of bad education, as much as the cause.

If you've travelled the world then you know how crazy different people are.

Many of those differences will yield different attitudes to school, to homework, to respect for authority, to criminality, to family etc.. All of those things will affect educational and life outcomes.

By the way - here is PISA scoring across national groups (breakdown for USA students):

http://web.archive.org/web/20111211103448im_/http://www.vdar...

Is it 'racist' to say that Sub Saharan Africa is a very, very different place than North Africa / Maghreb? They are like Venus and Mars they are so different. And it's not just 'income' or 'the weather'. They are entirely different cultures.

The world is very diverse. Different values = different behaviours = different outcomes.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#236

Post by phorkyas » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #191

whack wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "One of the problems here is that everybody has a pre-formed opinion and does not seem to want to risk having to modify it with the evidence of experience." That's probably the most accurate description of HN comments I've seen. People see a headline related to something they already have pre-existing beliefs about, they read a few paragraphs just to make sure they're on point, and then they jump straight to the co…

Isn't that the problem with Internet discussions in general? It's so rare to find a person whose opinion has changed after reading a different perspective on the Internet.

begun the circlejerk has.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#237

Post by mordocai » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

jimhefferon wrote: post #209

agentgt wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm willing to wager $10000 that a significant majority of HN commenters in any thread do not read the article in full, and even among those who do, a smaller minority actually post comments addressing the meat of what the article is saying. I'm curious... did you read the article in full? I'm not saying you're wrong but it would be funny if you didn't read it as well :) One of the things I like about Scientific Am…

> My question (I'm having my first child with in a month) is what do I do as a parent other than be patient: You could look into how your local public school system teaches. Taking to the people who teach there, for instance, is helpful. Expressing support for an NCTM-like approach, if you find you do support it, would also be great. > Education techniques particularly math has changed so many times that it is beginn…

> I want to know why we don't just go out and see, on actual students, what actually makes them better at understanding and being able to solve problems. Try different things and see what works. Review video tapes. Give before and after tests, and focus groups, and see what the people in the class learn the most from.

Probably because parents don't want their kids to be one on the receiving end of an experimental technique that doesn't work and sets back their child's learning and development by an unknown amount.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#238

Post by bpyne » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

jimhefferon wrote: post #209

agentgt wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm willing to wager $10000 that a significant majority of HN commenters in any thread do not read the article in full, and even among those who do, a smaller minority actually post comments addressing the meat of what the article is saying. I'm curious... did you read the article in full? I'm not saying you're wrong but it would be funny if you didn't read it as well :) One of the things I like about Scientific Am…

> My question (I'm having my first child with in a month) is what do I do as a parent other than be patient: You could look into how your local public school system teaches. Taking to the people who teach there, for instance, is helpful. Expressing support for an NCTM-like approach, if you find you do support it, would also be great. > Education techniques particularly math has changed so many times that it is beginn…

This comment is related to your muse starting with "I want to know why..." I'm simply pondering and looking for feedback from someone who is actually a teaching professional unlike myself.

"There [my comment: Finland], as in Japan, teachers teach for 600 or fewer hours each school year, leaving them ample time to prepare, revise and learn. By contrast, American teachers spend nearly 1,100 hours with little feedback."

This line took my notice. I have to wonder if their school systems are such that teachers do not have to be in front of students 6 continuous hours daily as my daughter's teachers do. (My daughter is in elementary school.) By the time her teachers finish with students, attend after-school meetings and grade, I can see there being precious little mental energy left for professional development.

My friend Scott made a career change a decade ago. After being a software developer for 22 years, he switched to teaching tech in a middle school. His comment to me after his first year was that teaching is much more exhausting because you have to be "on" 5-6 hours daily. If you're "off", students pick up on it and reflect it. His opinion hasn't changed after a decade.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#239

Post by jimhefferon » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 7:02 PM UTC

bpyne wrote: post #238

jimhefferon wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My question (I'm having my first child with in a month) is what do I do as a parent other than be patient: You could look into how your local public school system teaches. Taking to the people who teach there, for instance, is helpful. Expressing support for an NCTM-like approach, if you find you do support it, would also be great. > Education techniques particularly math has changed so many times that it is beginn…

This comment is related to your muse starting with "I want to know why..." I'm simply pondering and looking for feedback from someone who is actually a teaching professional unlike myself. "There [my comment: Finland], as in Japan, teachers teach for 600 or fewer hours each school year, leaving them ample time to prepare, revise and learn. By contrast, American teachers spend nearly 1,100 hours with little feedback."…

My only comment would be that I find what your friend Scott finds. I don't teach middle school, I teach in college, so my day is more mixed than his. But my training was as a high school teacher and my wife is a high school teacher, and I do find that her routine is exhausting.

I hear you about having little mental energy left. There are lots of intensely dedicated teachers but it is unreasonable to expect that they will be on 24-7. They get to have families, to have hobbies, etc., just like everybody else. Just like engineers, police officers, and any other highly trained professional.

(It is especially discouraging, for me, when someone writes a letter to the editor seeming to assert that teaching is something women do so they get summers off with their kids, kind of a hobby. Those make me cringe.)

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#240

Post by dang » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 7:46 PM UTC

jomamaxx wrote: post #235

devilsavocado wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any statistics in his comment. I actually don't see any supporting info at all. All I see is wild conjecture. If he did go looking for statistics, he would find that the effect he describes is better explained by the expanding lower class in america, regardless of race. http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/10/07/sat-scores-and-inc...

Ha ha. You have be kidding. It's widely known that Asian American and European American students outscore Latino and African American students. Nobody would contend that. For you to indicate that there is a very specific issue i.e. 'poverty' that is the 'driving factor' is wildly speculative and outlandish - a fetish of your ideology - and and the 'impetus' is upon you to prove it one way or another. My presumption o…

> Ha ha. You have be kidding.

It's not ok to comment like this here.

Several of your recent posts have crossed the line into incivility. Addressing people as "buddy", telling them about the "fetish of [their] ideology", etc.: all this is patronizing and rude. Please don't do any more of it on Hacker News.

If you're going to engage in difficult topics, you have a responsibility to do so with extra respect, not less.