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George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

electrek.co

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Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#231

Post by DannyBee »

patio11 wrote: post #190
jacquesm wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an incredibly reasonable list and something anybody active in the self driving car space should be more than happy to answer in the required detail.

What is your estimate of the required detail? Mine is 100,000 pages. Is your estimate, I don't know, only 100 pages or so? Look at their definition of the word "describe." This letter is designed to kill the company. That is a result I support, but, the people saying "This letter is designed to kill the company" are entirely correct.

Why do you assume this at all?

You can respond pretty much with anything that accurately answers the questions. If they want more detail, they can then ask for it.

I don't get where this strange idea that if he doesn't provide 100k pages, he's going to be subject to a fine immediately comes from. It's 100% completely and totally wrong.

If he literally answers the questions, he's fine. If they want more detail, they can ask for it.

The letter is not designed to kill the company, and the people who think so have probably never dealt with any regulatory agency.

My source on this, btw, is that i've dealt with many regulatory agencies many times.

They aren't psychos, even when they are adversarial.

To give you an example, when involved in a pretty adversarial issue with the DOJ, i cannot say they were anything but professional.

When the DOJ wanted more info on something we said "hey, can we just sit down for an hour and chat", and they'll usually say "great, let's do it", and then maybe they'll say a few weeks later "hey, thanks for doing that, we have some more questions about x, can we set up another hour" and so on. Are they always like this? No. (am i the most experienced person in the world? also no, it's also not what i do anymore at all, but this was my experience with pretty much every agency, every time)

But the vast majority of the time, they literally are just trying to gather info to decide what to do.

It's only when they are trying to actually get a particular result that things change. But you'll pretty much know when that happens, and this ain't it.

The only agency i've ever seen just be outright hostile is the CPSC.

The NHSTA, in my experience, is pretty much one of the most level headed and professional agencies you will find.

If you have actual evidence to the contrary, where they have "shut a company down", i'd love to see it.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#232

Post by wyager »

Oletros wrote: post #221
wyager wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two weeks is not reasonable for the demands made in the letter. That, plus a $21,000/day penalty, is a clear "fuck you".

Two weeks are totally reasonable. If you intend to sell the thing in less than two months, that information should already be ready

Why would you have all the random crap the NHTSA demanded ready to go if this wasn't a pre-existing regulation?

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#233

Post by icebraining »

Analemma_ wrote: post #31
j2bax wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on... Hotz doesn't really represent anyone but George Hotz. He is a very unique individual that was blessed with a very mathematical mind but very little social grace.

Sure, but every individual is part of a pattern, and our outgroup is becoming more convinced that there's one pattern in particular at play here. Take a look at the front page of Hacker News right now : in addition to this story, there's "Soylent halts sales of its powder as customers keep getting sick" and "Uber drivers win employee rights case" (presumably over Uber's fierce opposition). With 30 items on the front…

The Uber lawsuit doesn't fit in that pattern. Cab companies are also being used over the same issue[1], since drivers were always considered contractors. Uber followed the established model there, it's not an example of SV arrogance.

[1] http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-03-26/news/chi-suit-...

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#234

Post by DannyBee »

6stringmerc wrote: post #136
throwaway2016a wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but he said he planned to release the product by end of year... surely he at least had drafts of this information. The letter even said estimates were OK.

Look, I don't want to belabor the point but a laundry list of shit to submit isn't as easy as copy-paste from one document to another unless you don't actually care about answering the question and want to get mired in back and forth of "more information needed" or "answer unsatisfactory" when the only grading criteria (NHTSA) is behind closed doors. A lot of people here are assuming just by turning in "some answers"…

"A lot of people here are assuming just by turning in "some answers" that it would satisfy the NHTSA. "

Satisfy is not the question. Yes, they will request more info if they are not satisfied. But he will not be fined, it will not "shut down the company".

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#235

Post by sangnoir »

komali2 wrote: post #220
abduhl wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As you are undoubtedly aware, there is a high likelihood that some drivers will use your product in a manner that exceeds its intended purpose." The government appears well aware of this hand waving garbage that companies are trying with "it isn't really autopilot, keep your hands on the wheel wink ." This is exactly government's job and is a fabulous example of a government reacting to ongoing events that have prov…

>inherently a danger Can you expand on how they are an inherent danger, rather than a possible danger? I only challenge you because Tesla has published several occasions where Autopilot has possibly saved lives by auto-braking.

> Can you expand on how they are an inherent danger, rather than a possible danger?

I do not believe those words (inherent & possible) are in any way mutually exclusive. They might even mean the same thing when describing a latent danger. So I do not quite understand the basis of your challenge. Also, I'm not parent poster.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#236

Post by got2surf »

In the discussion on Jalopnik (a fairly large auto-enthusiast site), someone mentioned that Alex Roy had a good experience riding in a comma one-equipped car (https://twitter.com/AlexRoy144/status/791996855114694657).

I thought this was an interesting perspective - Alex Roy is famous in car enthusiast circles for his driving records over the past 30 years. He's set speed records with drives across the US and around Manhattan, and has set electric/semi-autonomous records in a Tesla Model S in August 2016.

The point being that Alex Roy has probably spent more time thinking about driving, planning trips, and understanding traffic rules than most other people alive today. His perspective is just a single perspective, but given his massive experience with car-driver systems I think it's an interesting perspective.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#237

Post by uola »

patio11 wrote: post #190
jacquesm wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an incredibly reasonable list and something anybody active in the self driving car space should be more than happy to answer in the required detail.

What is your estimate of the required detail? Mine is 100,000 pages. Is your estimate, I don't know, only 100 pages or so? Look at their definition of the word "describe." This letter is designed to kill the company. That is a result I support, but, the people saying "This letter is designed to kill the company" are entirely correct.

Hondas response to 34 questions was 22 pages long, plus presumably supporting documents.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/communications/pdf/Honda-r...

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#238

Post by DannyBee »

6stringmerc wrote: post #154
jacquesm wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point entirely: knowing that somewhere down the line you will have to have answers to questions like these is an integral part of releasing a bunch of software and a device to transform a regular car into a self driving car if you are serious about the project in the first place. If this list surprises you then you probably shouldn't be in the self driving car business.

No, you are. I'm pointing out that documentation that is satisfactory to a large bureaucratic entity is not as simple as the majority of the chorus here seems to think. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a company selling a public product to undergo scrutiny, sure, and I can sense that his operation is - probably wisely - thinking they're not robust enough to satisfy the hurdles. That doesn't mean his produc…

"I've worked in many fields with entities from local, county, state, and federal RFPs/RFIs/SOQs/etc and even if you're the best in the business and have proof it's not always easy to patch it together in a format desired in a timeline that's desired and call it done."

RFP's and RFI's are not the same thing, they are often thousands of pages of trying to meet hundreds of pages of random requirements.

What you are talking about sounds mostly like dealing with the contracting side of it, which is a very different world.

Have you also dealt with the "Response to regulatory agency concerns" part of it?

Because I have, and while yeah, with say, the SEC, it can be a trip, i wouldn't throw the NHTSA into that category.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#240

Post by robotresearcher »

wyager wrote: post #161
pdog wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe the nerve of some of these Silicon Valley randroids. If they're so great, why do they think a little bit of regulation is going to kill them?

Is this a joke? If not, you clearly didn't read the letter; it's more than "a little regulation", it's a huge set of requests on an unreasonably short timeline. With regard to the more general point of your post, even if it's nominally possible to eke out a profit under overburdening regulation, you're still allowed to take a principled stand against it.

He chose the launch date without making sure he was legal first.
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