George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’ • Hacker News Board

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#171

Post by tptacek » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #128

tptacek wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that going to help him? You think the odds are that a company like Nissan has less documentation than he has? Also: secret commercial information is exempt from FOIA.

1. Look at what they did to satisfy the regulators. 2. Respond in as similar a manner as possible. The commercial info is not necessary. They need to learn and follow the forms and protocols, and at least pretend to to be respectful when kissing the ring. If GeoHotz ran a restaurant, I wouldn't want him to be the one talking to the health inspector, either. He has the wrong personality for it. You really want the sch…

"Kissing the ring"? They want his test documents, not his fealty.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#172

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

akehrer wrote: post #84

logfromblammo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I guess the first thing I'd do is file a FOIA request to see any Special Orders they may have sent to Apple, Uber, Google, Tesla, GM, Ford, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Audi, Nissan, Toyota, BMW, and Volvo, and for copies of any documentation received from those companies that would be responsive to the demands in their own order or the order to comma.ai . Then I'd also request an extension in the time to respond…

Why do that when you could just get the information directly from the NHTSA [1]? I expect all those companies have been in communication with regulators from the beginning and produced plenty of documentation. Besides, they can't do the same thing the large players did since they aren't in control of developing the entire vehicle. [1] http://www.nhtsa.gov/nhtsa/av/av-policy.html

I read a bit of that, and it looks like the document you linked does not support the threat to fine $21k/day for not responding to the Special Order.

There is quite a lot of "voluntary" in there, along with "future regulation". I would guess that a lot of the voluntary safety assessment letters they get essentially say, "this is not entirely safe in absolute terms, but is definitely safer than an inattentive human driver."

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#173

Post by shashwatak » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #131

Analemma_ wrote: post #16

He's currently throwing a temper tantrum on Twitter, and all because the NHTSA wanted to ask him a few questions about the product (you can see it here: https://www.scribd.com/document/329218929/2016-10-27-Special... ). Like, how dare the government try to have basic standards for multi-ton hunks of metal hurtling down the highway without human input. I've been trying to convince people lately that Silicon Valley isn…

If you read the letter, it's a lot more than "answering a few questions". He gets two weeks to provide an enormous amount of detailed information about the product, I assume under threat of legal consequences if any of it contains an error, interspersed with lots of reminders that they can and will close down his business if they feel like it.

Considering the gravity of what they're building, they should already have detailed answers to all these questions. They shouldn't have launched a startup without spending massive time and effort ironing out these details. Two weeks is plenty of time to organize your thoughts.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#174

Post by smallnamespace » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #161

pdog wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe the nerve of some of these Silicon Valley randroids. If they're so great, why do they think a little bit of regulation is going to kill them?

Is this a joke? If not, you clearly didn't read the letter; it's more than "a little regulation", it's a huge set of requests on an unreasonably short timeline. With regard to the more general point of your post, even if it's nominally possible to eke out a profit under overburdening regulation, you're still allowed to take a principled stand against it.

The timeline is not unreasonable at all.

They were planning to ship by the end of the year -- obviously the regulator should get involved before it's in the hands of users.

I've seen requests from regulators before. If you don't have or can't produce exactly what they asked, you call them up and tell them some parts will take longer. The point is to have a dialogue; the threat of sanctions is just to make sure you work with them.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#175

Post by mikeash » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #142

BurningFrog wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the letter, it's a lot more than "answering a few questions". He gets two weeks to provide an enormous amount of detailed information about the product, I assume under threat of legal consequences if any of it contains an error, interspersed with lots of reminders that they can and will close down his business if they feel like it.

Yeah it seems a lot of the community here thinks that if he just threw together a few bullet points in an email response the NHTSA would sit back, say "Okay, great have fun!" and not, you know, make a big deal out of it. I, uh, disagree.

We'll never know, because he's not even trying.

Here's a nicely readable transcript of what they wanted:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817061

None of them sound particularly difficult to answer. Maybe they are difficult to answer in sufficient detail to satisfy the NHTSA, but you can always start out by answering them as best you can, and then seeing if they want more. There are people on the other end of this letter, not some unthinking machine. Toss off a quick response and say, "If you have any other questions or need further detail on the answers given here, please feel free to contact me at any time."

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#176

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #136

throwaway2016a wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but he said he planned to release the product by end of year... surely he at least had drafts of this information. The letter even said estimates were OK.

Look, I don't want to belabor the point but a laundry list of shit to submit isn't as easy as copy-paste from one document to another unless you don't actually care about answering the question and want to get mired in back and forth of "more information needed" or "answer unsatisfactory" when the only grading criteria (NHTSA) is behind closed doors. A lot of people here are assuming just by turning in "some answers"…

[deleted]

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#177

Post by 6stringmerc » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #151

6stringmerc wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it seems a lot of the community here thinks that if he just threw together a few bullet points in an email response the NHTSA would sit back, say "Okay, great have fun!" and not, you know, make a big deal out of it. I, uh, disagree.

I more thinking "why the hell doesn't he have the answers already?"

Having mentioned this elsewhere, I have first-hand experience going between SMEs and X/Y/Z bureaucratic entities for half a decade and there's a big difference between "having the answers you think are satisfactory" and "providing answers that they think are satisfactory." GI Joe pointed this out long ago in that "Knowing is half the battle" and putting it into a work product that accomplishes its task is the other half of the battle in this case (with no guarantees the responses provided will end the inquiry / threat of fines).

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#178

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #171

logfromblammo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Look at what they did to satisfy the regulators. 2. Respond in as similar a manner as possible. The commercial info is not necessary. They need to learn and follow the forms and protocols, and at least pretend to to be respectful when kissing the ring. If GeoHotz ran a restaurant, I wouldn't want him to be the one talking to the health inspector, either. He has the wrong personality for it. You really want the sch…

"Kissing the ring"? They want his test documents, not his fealty.

They want his compliance, or his $21k/day. The document is all stick and no carrot. And it is a big, federal regulatory agency stick. I think "kissing the ring" applies.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#179

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #154

jacquesm wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point entirely: knowing that somewhere down the line you will have to have answers to questions like these is an integral part of releasing a bunch of software and a device to transform a regular car into a self driving car if you are serious about the project in the first place. If this list surprises you then you probably shouldn't be in the self driving car business.

No, you are. I'm pointing out that documentation that is satisfactory to a large bureaucratic entity is not as simple as the majority of the chorus here seems to think. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a company selling a public product to undergo scrutiny, sure, and I can sense that his operation is - probably wisely - thinking they're not robust enough to satisfy the hurdles. That doesn't mean his produc…

But that goes with the territory. Just like you're not going to 'disrupt' the aviation industry or the medical world on a shoestring budget (see also: Theranos, you still need a working product even if you do all the paperwork).

And I personally feel that's a good thing. Even if Hotz' software is a-ok I'd still expect him to have it properly documented and vetted before one of his customers hits my vehicle.

The roads are not a playground.

I've done a fair bit of work on vehicles and I'm happy to say that my work passed inspection, and that I would consider it to be irresponsible to see such control over the workmanship and quality as un-necessary interference by busybodies, the primary objective of product development does not obviate the need for a reasonable overhead to prove that you did your homework.

Also, I never meant to say or imply that his product is shit or dangerous, merely that it is not up to snuff for deployment let alone sales at the present stage and that the gap between that and where it should be is too large to overcome for Hotz. In other words: it is not a product - yet.

Re: George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’

#180

Post by erikpukinskis » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

abduhl wrote: post #144

hartator wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel $21,000 fine per day sounds pretty like "we want to shut you down". He never presented comma.ai as an autopilot but as a very smart line assist and adaptive cruise control.

"As you are undoubtedly aware, there is a high likelihood that some drivers will use your product in a manner that exceeds its intended purpose." The government appears well aware of this hand waving garbage that companies are trying with "it isn't really autopilot, keep your hands on the wheel wink ." This is exactly government's job and is a fabulous example of a government reacting to ongoing events that have prov…

Proof that so-called autopilot systems are a danger to the public would be evidence that they perform worse than the average driver. I haven't seen such evidence, what are you referencing?