New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#441

Post by woah » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

bisby wrote: post #284

ericjang wrote: post #37

I dislike this post intensely. The opinion comes across as uncharitable, as the author probably has not used this Macbook Pro yet. How can you (alexeysemeney) be so sure? I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative d…

As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope." Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that t…

I use a 12 inch MacBook on my lap in an office where I could have any number of external monitors. I'm quite productive.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#442

Post by jablan » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

readitmeow wrote: post #366

bisby wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope." Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that t…

What does an external keyboard give you that you can't get from a laptop keyboard? I like the macbook pro keyboard. I plug in two monitors and I'm good to go. Vim users should remap somewhere closer. I use cap locks. Will that not be possible anymore?

For me personally, Home, End, PgUp and PgDown keys. Also, MX switches. I can work without them, but I really think my tools should adapt to me, rather than vice versa.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#443

Post by to3m » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

readitmeow wrote: post #366

bisby wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope." Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that t…

What does an external keyboard give you that you can't get from a laptop keyboard? I like the macbook pro keyboard. I plug in two monitors and I'm good to go. Vim users should remap somewhere closer. I use cap locks. Will that not be possible anymore?

Split layout (optional); numeric keypad; navigation keys; cursor keys; Print Screen key; 2 control keys; symmetrical meta keys; separate volume and mute keys.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#444

Post by mrweasel » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

kmicklas wrote: post #401

bisby wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope." Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that t…

> As a vim user, esc is pretty important. Only if you're too lazy to rebind it to any of the many more finger friendly options.

What if you log in to a large number of servers on a regular basis, then you'd need ESC for vi.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#445

Post by ajacksified » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

_ix wrote: post #274

yoz-y wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The escape key can be right there on the capslock (option to be enabled in System Preferences -> Keyboard). Using Esc key heavily with its default location is not practical at all. As for the F-keys I think this is more of a problem.

How do you achieve this with just System Preferences? On 10.11.6, I see the System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Modifier Keys allows re-mapping to Nothing, Control, Option, and Command, but not Escape. Is this a macOS Sierra thing? Tell me your secrets!

Check out Karabiner and Seil- you can even use these to map "tap capslock" to esc and "hold down capslock" to ctrl. (Seil has some issues in 10.12, but they're working on it.)

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#446

Post by devnull255 » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

Well, according to info about the new MacBook, news of the the function keys' death has been greatly exaggerated.

"Access the function keys by holding down the FN key on the keyboard." -- http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/

One might also optimistically hope that the touchbar itself has some practical level of re-programmability.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#447

Post by uw_rob » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

hellofunk wrote: post #69

uw_rob wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although people place a lot of trust in Apple, I think the proverb of "trust but verify" applies here. We shouldn't just take it on faith that Apple has made the correct choice.

What does "correct" mean? They are at least consistent. For decades they remove major hardware controls and ports that were initially thought to be critical for use. They were the first to get rid of CD drives, floppy drives, the list is quite long.

The best definition I can come up with is that Apple does not regret removing it in the future. I suspect they will be correct. I don't see people passing up on MBPs over this, and in 5-10 years people will stop missing the function keys.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#448

Post by varunmved » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

boardwaalk wrote: post #318

bisby wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope." Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that t…

http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Avoid_the_escape_key

+1 I don't touch the escape key and I've used vim for quite some time.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#449

Post by 51Cards » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #337

I'm always amazed at how techies are so often unable to consider other people's points of view. You'd think I'd be used to it by now, but no. If you don't like the new design, that's totally fine. I've seen a lot of people saying that. But when you say that the new design is bad for everybody , or bad for millions of people you haven't met, based solely on your own personal reasons, you've lost it. I'm a developer. T…

Here is my issue with the new touch bar as a general UI element. Things meant for fingers should have tactile feedback unless you're also looking at the same location (like a touch screen) where you can get visual feedback. This offers no tactile response when used, and its layout changes constantly, thus it needs to be looked at to use it. That means you have to shift your vision focus from screen to keyboard repeatedly as you move through apps (or even while in the same app if they make the content dynamic). To me this is bad UI design at a fundamental level.

I can see this being handy as a "slider" style control (though a touch pad edge could be as well). Otherwise though, especially when used as "buttons" my opinion is that it is going to be very tiresome to use extensively and slow general interactions down. If you need this kind of interaction style it should be on a touch screen without forcing the eyes to change focus or monitor changes in peripheral vision.

TLDR There is a reason we touch type. Touch. Exactly what this is missing.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#450

Post by lucisferre » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

bisby wrote: post #284

ericjang wrote: post #37

I dislike this post intensely. The opinion comes across as uncharitable, as the author probably has not used this Macbook Pro yet. How can you (alexeysemeney) be so sure? I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative d…

As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope." Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that t…

I nearly exclusively use VIm and any other editor I use has a VIm mode plugin installed. I pretty much can't work productively in anything else.

I can tell you that I haven't used Esc in ages. I have Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl (as it is a vastly more useful a key than Esc and Caps Lock is a much better position for it and is just as an extraneous as Esc is). I use Ctrl-C or Ctrl-[ to exit insert mode and it works just fine. In fact I understand that most experienced VIm users do this.

Esc is, by and large a useless key. Even if it wasn't you can remap keys as you like so feel free to map Esc to Caps Lock if you want. Taken alone the lack of Esc and Fn keys is not an argument against the design of the new MBP for developers.