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Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#161

Post by Jemmeh »

atemerev wrote: post #97

The key to math education is practice. Even drilling, maybe. Other fields deal with concepts more or less mapped to the real world. Physics is about real world, more or less (right until you get to quants, then the level of abstraction rises dramatically). Same goes for biology, and even computer science in general. There, you can rely on words, which usually convey meaning. In math, you can't rely on words. You'll n…

I whole-heartedly disagree with this.

A.) For the obvious not everyone learns the same way

B.)Drills and practice are important, but being able to actually apply your math skills is also important. I remember in high school when there were math word problems so many people HATED them. These were people in honors/college level classes and they struggled to actually apply the math to situations. Find how fast the train is moving, how long the ladder is, and Geometry proofs all made many of them get confused. They didn't understand the point of the math they knew.

Personally, I got SO bored with drills/memorization. And personally for me, that if that's the -only- method of learning used it's awful for long term retention. The math skills that I've retained the longest were taught in several different ways-- a mix of drills/practice, visualization, mixing it with other types of problems so that I could see how the puzzle pieces fit together, etc. I understand the point of what I'm doing, it's not just some abstracted concept that I happened to write 50 times.

I agree that past a certain point you'll have to accept abstraction, but especially in early years up until probably Algebra, it's a useful skill to be able to use math in the real world. Seriously, I've met so many people who can't calculate a tip, understand fractions enough for simple cooking, do their budgeting, or begin to understand economics and taxes enough to be even decently informed citizens.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#162

Post by aninhumer »

tomc1985 wrote: post #17
geomark wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wondered about that. The imperial system is positively awkward. What about other countries that also use the imperial system instead of metric? Are they also behind?

The UK uses their own screwy imperial units for some measures

But not to the extent that we really ever have to do any kind of conversions between them.

Sure beer is served by the pint, but no one's ever going to ask for "10 ounces" when they want a half.

Pretty much the only conversions people ever do are between inches and feet when talking about height.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#163

Post by entropy_ »

misja111 wrote: post #148
DanBC wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The key to math education is practice. Even drilling, maybe. Do you have any research to support that? Because from what I've seen we currently think that drilling does nothing to help with understanding, and that one of the problems people have with maths is applying the wrong technique to a problem because they don't understand the problem. > You'll never understand even relatively simple things like complex anal…

It's interesting that you mention 8 year olds, because 8 year olds learning basic maths need to go through the same process. First kids need to be drilled to pick up the basics such as tables of multiplication, the understanding comes afterwards (for some). This is how maths has been taught for ages, but not so long ago common perception under teachers changed: people started thinking, wouldn't it be better to teach…

Did you even read the article? Because what you say is a direct contradiction of the article. The article even explains why the reforms didn't work in the US(TL;DR; they weren't properly implemented) while they did work elsewhere, like Japan which is the example the article uses. Given that their statements are backed by evidence while yours are not, I think I'd rather believe them.

As an aside, no one is saying that there is no place for practice in math teaching. What they're saying is that it needs to be balanced with time spent actually learning the concepts and exploring on your own rather than just practicing and drilling. From the article:

"Similarly, 96 percent of American students’ work fell into the category of “practice,” while Japanese students spent only 41 percent of their time practicing"

Those students still spend just under half their time practicing, which is still significant, just not the overwhelming majority of their time as in the case of American schools.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#164

Post by NumberCruncher »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

Funny fact: a couple of my former classmates won gold/silver medals on the international mathematical olympiad. One minute googleing sais that at least 4 of them are teaching on US universities you mentioned. I am from eastern Europe.

The US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world because the US can buy it.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#165

Post by whack »

jimhefferon wrote: post #147

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

> "One of the problems here is that everybody has a pre-formed opinion and does not seem to want to risk having to modify it with the evidence of experience."

That's probably the most accurate description of HN comments I've seen. People see a headline related to something they already have pre-existing beliefs about, they read a few paragraphs just to make sure they're on point, and then they jump straight to the comments to argue in favor of what they already know to be true.

I'm willing to wager $10000 that a significant majority of HN commenters in any thread do not read the article in full, and even among those who do, a smaller minority actually post comments addressing the meat of what the article is saying.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#166

Post by clifanatic »

jimhefferon wrote: post #147

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

> very few of them show evidence of having read the article

Americans stink at reading, too.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#167

Post by pessimizer »

Looks like the answer is buried at the end: "Finland, meanwhile, made the shift by carving out time for teachers to spend learning. There, as in Japan, teachers teach for 600 or fewer hours each school year, leaving them ample time to prepare, revise and learn. By contrast, American teachers spend nearly 1,100 hours with little feedback."

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#168

Post by pessimizer »

mathattack wrote: post #14
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

We do a great job with the extreme students. The top 5% of private and public schools in the country produce more than enough folks capable in mathematics. It's the rest of the country that struggles. There are a lot of reasons why the US does well in Universities and poorer up until then relative to the rest of the world: 1 - In much of the world, the school you get into matters more than what you did there. (The lo…

> The top 5% of private and public schools in the country produce more than enough folks capable in mathematics.

That's because it's a very easy job. Once you've filtered out 95% of students, the rest would thrive if you threw them in a closet with a book and a flashlight.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#169

Post by alistproducer2 »

whack wrote: post #165
jimhefferon wrote: post #147

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

> "One of the problems here is that everybody has a pre-formed opinion and does not seem to want to risk having to modify it with the evidence of experience." That's probably the most accurate description of HN comments I've seen. People see a headline related to something they already have pre-existing beliefs about, they read a few paragraphs just to make sure they're on point, and then they jump straight to the co…

I concur with this. I have to fight the urge to do it myself.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#170

Post by dzdt »

jimhefferon wrote: post #147

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

Evidence that few read the article: no-one yet pointed out it is (2014).
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