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Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

news.nationalgeographic.com

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Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#51

Post by PostOnce »

PostOnce wrote: post #23
british_india wrote: post #21

I call complete bullshit. From having watched shows like NCS, we know the amount of direct evidence it takes to establish something like who was buried somewhere. Like the shroud of Turin this is just another example of wishful thinking. They found some random tomb that has survived and announced that it was the tomb of this fictional character Christ. No chain of custody for evidence, just the wishful thinking of so…

Aw shucks, you don't say? and here we all were thinking they'd irrefutably proved Christianity. there's still history to be learned and an interesting story to be told about life thousands of years ago regardless of its lack of real supernatural content. in other news Apple didn't revolutionize everything again with the touch bar, welcome to life :p

Just because the headline is sensational doesn't mean there's nothing of merit in the body of the work.

Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#52

Post by gliptic »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #48
gliptic wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole field is mired in methods that don't work. A counterpoint is the book 'On the Historicity of Jesus' and 'Proving History' by Richard Carrier. It's not as easy to dismiss as many suppose.

People like Carrier who deny the historicity of Christ are the equivalent of creationists/ID-ists/climate change deniers in history. They are regarded as crackpots in history and biblical studies.

Hah, no. Read his book. As I said, not so easily dismissed. Sure, historicity-deniers have been tainted by poor scholarship in the past, but this is nothing like that.

Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#53

Post by seren »

vacri wrote: post #6

It's surprising that they've done this, given the Immovable Ladder's example of just how difficult it is to alter anything in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immovable_Ladder

This is the first time I have heard about that story. This is so strange and unbelievable, and yet very familiar. It sounds like something out of Swift between the Big Endians and the Little Endians. Thanks for bringing it up.

Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#54

Post by danieltillett »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #49
danieltillett wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus was a very common name at the time and Josephus mention at least 4 other Jesus's. I do agree that everything about the historicity of Jesus is very hazy.

As the above poster said, its a very mainstream view that some Josephus mentions are valid, some obviously not.

It is a very complex area, but the sections that are thought to be valid don’t really say much about Jesus. Even if they did, Josephus was not contemporary with Jesus.

There really are no historical records of Jesus that are contemporary. The earliest are the letters of Paul and they were written decades after Jesus lived. Paul himself says he never met Jesus (except by revelation).

Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#55

Post by wodencafe »

jacquesm wrote: post #19
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #14

I've been to the tomb, once, when I was 13 ish. I remember an Orthodox priest inside the chamber, who was taking donations in exchange for candlesticks and talismans etc. I also remember him telling my father to leave the money on the tomb, next to his goods. My father, who is no more a Christian than I am was absolutely disgusted at that.

Par for the course. Quote George Carlin: 'Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible ... all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise being that somehow just can't handle money!, Always needs a little more.'

George's "Religion is Bullshit" bit was his absolute best, and my personal favorite.

Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#56

Post by p333347 »

alsetmusic wrote: post #20
virtualwhys wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spent the winter in Israel a couple of years ago. The old city in Jerusalem is awe inspiring. As for the Holy Sepulchre, as a non-Christian I found it pretty surreal. Clearly for the faithful it's a big deal, saw people outright crying coming out of the Sepulchre. The church itself is beautiful, powerful artwork from all of the sects (Ethiopian included). Particularly the fresco at the entrance, Christ being laid to…

> saw people outright crying coming out of the Sepulchre This sort of reaction is deeply troubling to me because I see it as evidence of the overwhelming grip that religions have on (some of) their followers. It reminds me of videos of teenagers crying at the sight of Michael Jackson or the Beatles at live performances. It is unnecessary. My mother, for example, is unable to laugh at even the most trivial of jokes ab…

> I am constantly seeking to remind her that it is a lack of lightheartedness that is at the rock of extremism....I know the likelihood that I'll ever succeed is small, but it's important to me to wake people from what I consider to be a way of thinking that impairs sound judgement (say, when voting or choosing how to react to world politics). I'm not against religion or the right to practice religion, just its ability to cause hysteria.

Have you considered what is trivial and lighthearted to you might be deeply offensive to her? You might say "that is exactly what I am trying to change" but to that I would say "why". Unless a person is explicitly causing harm either by doing anti social things or inciting people with speeches to do anti social things, or forces their belief system on you, what someone believes in or finds funny is no one's business. I guess your mother isn't any of that - she's just a law abiding woman with a certain religious faith that makes her life feel meaningful - so leave her alone.

It also seems that you are to quick to relate religious people with religious extremists, which is flawed. The whole idea of atheists having to "wake up" religious people is quite cocky and indecent. Also the assumption that religious people have "impaired judgement" is deeply offensive. If anything, its the atheists who are extremists with impaired judgement because they think they are better then the religious people.

I used to be one of these cocky atheists in my early 20s and used to constantly bother my deeply religious mother until one day she told me off. She basically said why do I bother her when she doesn't force me to follow the religion (she did like any parent till I was a teen and rebelled and then left me alone). That was a wake up call to me. Of course, my cockiness will come right out whenever a religious relative or colleague tries to mock my lack of faith or give me unsolicited advice with religion based arguments. But in general, I don't try to be holier than thou and look down upon religious people or interfere with their faith.

Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#57

Post by qbrass »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #43
imaginenore wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? What evidence is there?

I wonder if it actually matters if he was real or not, or whether he did what the major religions claim he did. What matters is that billions of people believe it, and he's an example to billions of people, giving them a moral example to strive towards. You know, like superheroes in the US. They don't exist (which is factually verifiable still), but people are fans of them. What if in 2000 years people forget or lose…

Now repeat the history of religious wars except now you know everyone's killing each other over movie preferences.

Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#58

Post by jacquesm »

vacri wrote: post #6

It's surprising that they've done this, given the Immovable Ladder's example of just how difficult it is to alter anything in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immovable_Ladder

Nothing some termites or woodworms can't fix, and it will at least lay to rest one more religious conflict.

From your link:

"The primary conflicts, however, surrounding the ladder and its immovability have been disputed by a lasting conflict between the Greek Orthodox Church and the Armenian Apostolic Church."

Surely such insect activity could be interpreted as 'an act of God' and then all parties could get on with their lives.

Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#59

Post by alsetmusic »

p333347 wrote: post #56
alsetmusic wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> saw people outright crying coming out of the Sepulchre This sort of reaction is deeply troubling to me because I see it as evidence of the overwhelming grip that religions have on (some of) their followers. It reminds me of videos of teenagers crying at the sight of Michael Jackson or the Beatles at live performances. It is unnecessary. My mother, for example, is unable to laugh at even the most trivial of jokes ab…

> I am constantly seeking to remind her that it is a lack of lightheartedness that is at the rock of extremism....I know the likelihood that I'll ever succeed is small, but it's important to me to wake people from what I consider to be a way of thinking that impairs sound judgement (say, when voting or choosing how to react to world politics). I'm not against religion or the right to practice religion, just its abili…

> Have you considered what is trivial and lighthearted to you might be deeply offensive to her?

No doubt. Perhaps I could have been clearer. There is no version of a joke about her religion that isn't offensive to her. And yes, this is indeed the basis for the beginnings of extremism, although not full blown extremism by itself.

If you can't hear or read something about your religion that is contrary to your strict beliefs without getting offended, you are 100% doing it wrong.

Re: Tomb venerated as burial place of Christ exposed for first time in centuries

#60

Post by kesselvon »

rolal wrote: post #45

A lot of the National Geographic societys work these days seems to have a strong appeal to religous people. They are owned by the FOX corporation and I wonder if this religious market is something that FOX is pushing them to focus on.

They're just going where the money is. Selling NatGeo felt a bit like a betrayal, since NewsCorp is going to run it into the ground.
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