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Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#111

Post by kwhitefoot »

Ended wrote: post #99
ctrlalt_g wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once heard an anecdote that might describe some of what's happening. In the trenches of WWI, when it was time to fight, soldiers would have to climb up a ladder onto a battlefield. The problem was that German snipers could see the tops of the ladders. The Germans would keep their rifles fixed on where they knew the enemy would emerge and simply shoot them down once they saw helmets appear. The European Allied soldi…

OTOH, the terrible truth is that it was necessary to order thousands of soldiers to their almost-certain deaths in order to win the war, and without a disciplined army this would not be possible. This says something about the value of discipline (in war or maths!) even when it's not obviously in your personal interest.

Is that true? I mean: is it true that the actions where it was necessary to "order thousands of soldiers to their almost-certain deaths" were significant causes of the final outcome?

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#112

Post by LeanderK »

atemerev wrote: post #97

The key to math education is practice. Even drilling, maybe. Other fields deal with concepts more or less mapped to the real world. Physics is about real world, more or less (right until you get to quants, then the level of abstraction rises dramatically). Same goes for biology, and even computer science in general. There, you can rely on words, which usually convey meaning. In math, you can't rely on words. You'll n…

i don't agree completely. I think math also has a point where, until you you pass it, can make the connection to real-life. Adding, Subtracting, simple equations. But then you have to let go and resist the urge to "justify" the material by providing real-life assignments.

But i agree that the key is practice. At university, where the pace picks up dramatically, you figure out that going to the lecture is not as important as finishing the assignments. Always finish the assignments.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#113

Post by snarfy »

atemerev wrote: post #97

The key to math education is practice. Even drilling, maybe. Other fields deal with concepts more or less mapped to the real world. Physics is about real world, more or less (right until you get to quants, then the level of abstraction rises dramatically). Same goes for biology, and even computer science in general. There, you can rely on words, which usually convey meaning. In math, you can't rely on words. You'll n…

This very much reminds me of learning to play a musical instrument. You don't need to learn a bunch of music theory to get better. You just need to practice a lot. The theory does no good if you can't actually play, and it makes much more sense to learn after you can play since you know what it already sounds like when reading about it.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#114

Post by blahblah3 »

jacquesm wrote: post #94
jomamaxx wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why doesn't the preeminence of the US math knowledge appear to seep into the primary and secondary school education?" Because preeminence of top tier institutions (which are kind of global centres anyhow) - has absolutely nothing to do with teaching math to the commons. Here's a hint: +++ Americans don't suck at Math +++ There's a very un-PC but very large elephant in the room that people won't discuss. + European A…

It's not racism, it's Ethnicity! /s > Unfortunately, it's so sensitive few will want to talk about it - for fear that the general public equates educational outcomes to 'intelligence' and try to strongly correlate ethnicity + race to this, which would be fodder for racist/KKK types, which wouldn't really help the overall social situation in America. Fortunately we have you.

What is disagreeable about his comment? Do you disagree that examining a statistic by subgroup could provide more insight into the question?

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#115

Post by thecopy »

Ended wrote: post #99
ctrlalt_g wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once heard an anecdote that might describe some of what's happening. In the trenches of WWI, when it was time to fight, soldiers would have to climb up a ladder onto a battlefield. The problem was that German snipers could see the tops of the ladders. The Germans would keep their rifles fixed on where they knew the enemy would emerge and simply shoot them down once they saw helmets appear. The European Allied soldi…

OTOH, the terrible truth is that it was necessary to order thousands of soldiers to their almost-certain deaths in order to win the war, and without a disciplined army this would not be possible. This says something about the value of discipline (in war or maths!) even when it's not obviously in your personal interest.

Was is necessary to win the war?

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#116

Post by pizza »

tmptmp wrote: post #59
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

US society/culture in general is the main cause of this problem as most people here do not value math. Math requires deep, creative and original thinking and thinking is rather difficult to perform act. It seems that the US culture derides analytical thinking in general, with many popular public figures flaunting their "inability to do math" as some sort of great achievement and sending out a loud and clear messages,…

China comes to mind. They seem more technocratic than we (USA) do (legalist hierarchy?). Can you imagine Deng Xiaoping saying, "Ha, I'm just a policy guy" or something alike

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#117

Post by cmdrfred »

atemerev wrote: post #97

The key to math education is practice. Even drilling, maybe. Other fields deal with concepts more or less mapped to the real world. Physics is about real world, more or less (right until you get to quants, then the level of abstraction rises dramatically). Same goes for biology, and even computer science in general. There, you can rely on words, which usually convey meaning. In math, you can't rely on words. You'll n…

I always considered myself bad at math in school. For me the drilling as the problem. I have trouble focusing on arbitrary tasks. After I left high school and started to teach myself programming I became much better at it. Having an actual problem to solve, instead of a worksheet created by a random number generator, is key.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#118

Post by etangent »

tmptmp wrote: post #59
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

US society/culture in general is the main cause of this problem as most people here do not value math. Math requires deep, creative and original thinking and thinking is rather difficult to perform act. It seems that the US culture derides analytical thinking in general, with many popular public figures flaunting their "inability to do math" as some sort of great achievement and sending out a loud and clear messages,…

>> It seems that the US culture derides analytical thinking in general, with many popular public figures flaunting their "inability to do math" as some sort of great achievement and sending out a loud and clear messages, like, "don't analyze just enjoy your life and avoid math as math means analysis"

I am generally not a fan of speaking in terms of "privilege" and "identity", but this is precisely an example of "developed Western country privilege". The attitude goes, "See, I can still be successful/well-off without having to hunch down and study math like those third-world FOB immigrants do." It comes down to status signalling: not having to do math becomes a status signal. It also appears it is mostly this attitude and not the widely blamed "bro culture" that is the major reason why women (in the West, because this didn't happen elsewhere) abandoned CS sometime in the late 80s/90s.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#119

Post by icebraining »

jacquesm wrote: post #90
ctrlalt_g wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once heard an anecdote that might describe some of what's happening. In the trenches of WWI, when it was time to fight, soldiers would have to climb up a ladder onto a battlefield. The problem was that German snipers could see the tops of the ladders. The Germans would keep their rifles fixed on where they knew the enemy would emerge and simply shoot them down once they saw helmets appear. The European Allied soldi…

> In the trenches of WWI, when it was time to fight, soldiers would have to climb up a ladder onto a battlefield. The problem was that German snipers could see the tops of the ladders. The Germans would keep their rifles fixed on where they knew the enemy would emerge and simply shoot them down once they saw helmets appear. > The European Allied soldiers were so disciplined that they just kept climbing up the ladders…

I don't know about any americans, but isn't the Souain affair pretty much a CO ordering his soldiers to keep going despite an ever mounting heap of corpses?

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#120

Post by impendia »

ScottBurson wrote: post #24
mathattack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do a great job with the extreme students. The top 5% of private and public schools in the country produce more than enough folks capable in mathematics. It's the rest of the country that struggles. There are a lot of reasons why the US does well in Universities and poorer up until then relative to the rest of the world: 1 - In much of the world, the school you get into matters more than what you did there. (The lo…

> It's a mixed bad in K-12 Your typo is very accurate :-) I would say that our problem in K-12 is a self-perpetuating one. The teachers were taught math badly and so never really learned it (and learned to hate it into the bargain). So then they teach it badly. I'm not sure there's any solution except for tuning the students in to Khan Academy and suchlike programs.

>The teachers were taught math badly

I'm a college math professor, and I've talked to people who've taught the required "math for elementary ed majors" class.

From everything I've heard, it's bleakly depressing. The students (i.e., the future teachers) show little aptitude, curiosity, or work ethic. They just want to be shown algorithms that will always lead them to the correct answer.

I haven't taught such a course myself. I hope what I've heard is exaggerated. Liking kids is well and good, but if you're going to be a teacher then you should also like learning. My own elementary school teachers did, and everyone deserves an education as good as the one I got.

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