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FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

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Re: FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

#81

Post by hackuser »

Spivak wrote: post #53
hackuser wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are legally empowered by elected officials, just like the police, the courts, the entire Justice Department, military, State Department, NIH, NSF, IEEE (for some things), and many, many more. What alternative is there? Our elected officials can't possibly have the time or the expertise to perform all those tasks themselves.

If Congress legally empowered an un-elected five person 'Super Congress' that wielded the power of Congress itself to make laws independently would you feel like your voice at the ballot box was being undermined? I'm not saying the US regulatory agencies are at that point, but I would feel better about them if their power was more directly checked by the Executive branch. Instead of "FCC voted today on a new ISP resu…

> Instead of "FCC voted today on a new ISP resulations..." it would be "Today President Obama approves new FCC recommendation...".

Again, how could that be done realistically? The President would do nothing else and still have no chance to keep up. They could print the statement the way you describe, but it would be deceitful.

Also, we want to depoliticize regulations; I'm not sure I want the President involved in every one.

Re: FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

#82

Post by Veratyr »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #78
bitJericho wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be prevented through the use if a secure proxy.

A proxy between you and your ISP? How do you talk to the proxy?

The proxy is outside your ISP. The connection between you and your proxy is secure, so your ISP cannot gain anything useful from it.

Re: FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

#83

Post by pdonis »

Frogolocalypse wrote: post #79
pdonis wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The executive can always modify or repeal the act that defines their constitution and authority. Um, what? Once it's signed into law (which the acts that empower agencies like the FCC are), the executive branch can't modify the law at all. Only Congress can. The only thing the executive can do is veto a bill when it comes, to prevent it from becoming law in the first place.

> Only Congress can. Sorry, I should have said 'government'. There are three branches of the US government : the legislature, the judiciary, and the executive. You have a say in all of them though. Don't you vote in your congress-people and senators? So... They can. The government can always modify or repeal the act that defines their constitution and authority. They're your representative. If you don't like an act,…

> I should have said 'government'.

Ah, ok. Yes, the government--specifically the legislative branch--can always modify or repeal a law.

> The government can always modify or repeal the act that defines their constitution and authority.

If by "their" you mean "the FCC's" (or some other agency), then yes. But if by "their" you mean "the government's" in general, it's not so easy. A Constitutional amendment has a much higher threshold of passage than a simple law. It takes a 2/3 majority of both houses of Congress to propose an amendment, and then it takes 3/4 of the states ratifying it before it actually can take effect.

> If you don't like an act, get them to change it.

Sure, as long as enough other voters agree with you to get their attention. Which practically never happens.

Re: FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

#84

Post by ncallaway »

gruez wrote: post #77
NegativeK wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VPNs are completely out of the question for the vast majority of internet users, who the FCC is mainly concerned about protecting.

How so? They're easy to set up, especially with a compatible router.

I mean... why is it hard for the majority of users to use linux?

Why is it hard for the majority of users to use a password manager?

Because most people on the planet are busy and don't give a damn.

Re: FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

#85

Post by csydas »

JadeNB wrote: post #60
joering2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that would fly if they are being sued? How would LE defend money being spent on something that they cannot use? I mean any judge will see it, no?

> How would LE defend money being spent on something that they cannot use? I mean any judge will see it, no? The common-sense interpretation is not always (and, much as I hate to say it, probably sometimes should not be) the interpretation arrived at by a judge.

I appreciate healthy skepticism, but evidence has been thrown out on far flimsier premises by even the lowest of courts. It would be very surprising if evidence of this manner continually survived through the court system on appeal after appeal.

This isn't saying it can never happen, but it would be in contrast to the multitude of times that evidence was discarded for less.

I haven't had a chance to read the fcc's reasoning on why the ISPs are allowed to collect the data in the first place, and I do agree it seems like a ruling that's just can't wait to show off all its loopholes; but I think this would be pretty difficult to bring as evidence in trial. Though I do agree and think it'll be used as a cudgel for other purposes outside of the courts, for threats or for discriminatory justice.

Re: FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

#87

Post by Kadin »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #78
bitJericho wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be prevented through the use if a secure proxy.

A proxy between you and your ISP? How do you talk to the proxy?

Most use OpenVPN and tunnel all traffic over SSLed TCP. So your traffic goes out to an endpoint server run by the proxy company, and gets dumped onto the public net at that point.

Re: FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

#88

Post by btown »

ez_psychedelic wrote: post #58
devindotcom wrote: post #36

Interestingly there seems to be a loophole in that they can collect the data regardless of consent, but can't use or share it without consent. So chances are this sensitive data will be recorded and put in a database anyway, even if they're not lawfully allowed to look at it without anonymizing first - but a future law could also add an exception, keeping things for law enforcement for instance. I'm triple checking w…

This will probably just turn into a line in the terms and agreements that everyone just clicks "yes" because they have to in order to use anything.

From christianmunoz's comment:

Copied this from another comment of [his] on this post, but it answers part of your question. From the FCC fact sheet[0] on the decision:

> The Order prohibits “take-it-or-leave-it” offers, meaning that an ISP can’t refuse to serve customers who don’t consent to the use and sharing of their information for commercial purposes.

So at least they can't cut you off entirely if you don't consent/opt-in.

[0] http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2016....

Re: FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

#89

Post by Frogolocalypse »

pdonis wrote: post #83
Frogolocalypse wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only Congress can. Sorry, I should have said 'government'. There are three branches of the US government : the legislature, the judiciary, and the executive. You have a say in all of them though. Don't you vote in your congress-people and senators? So... They can. The government can always modify or repeal the act that defines their constitution and authority. They're your representative. If you don't like an act,…

> I should have said 'government'. Ah, ok. Yes, the government--specifically the legislative branch--can always modify or repeal a law. > The government can always modify or repeal the act that defines their constitution and authority. If by "their" you mean "the FCC's" (or some other agency), then yes. But if by "their" you mean "the government's" in general, it's not so easy. A Constitutional amendment has a much h…

> A Constitutional amendment has a much higher threshold of passage than a simple law.

You are misunderstanding the word 'constitution'. Every company and regulatory body has one. It defines who does what, and the 'what you can do, and more importantly, what you should do' of a regulatory body is defined within the act. It is not the 'american constitution'. It is created and modified during the regular practice of government with the creation and modification of an act. Every democratic government, and indeed, even non-democratic ones, does it roughly the same way. If it didn't happen this way, cars would still be driving with lead petrol.

> Sure, as long as enough other voters agree with you to get their attention.

It happens all of the time.

You know dude, I'm not really sure you know how the government functions. This is what they do, and there are so many levels of it. It's true that large multi-state regulatory bodies have larger impacts, and therefore require more support, in order to be enacted. But they get created in the first place for a reason, and end up getting modified for a reason. Your representatives create and modify acts that allocate funds to fund regulatory bodies to enforce laws. That's democracy. That's how it works.

Re: FCC Vote Means Internet Providers Need Permission to Share Your Data

#90

Post by daveFNbuck »

btown wrote: post #88
ez_psychedelic wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will probably just turn into a line in the terms and agreements that everyone just clicks "yes" because they have to in order to use anything.

From christianmunoz's comment: Copied this from another comment of [his] on this post, but it answers part of your question. From the FCC fact sheet[0] on the decision: > The Order prohibits “take-it-or-leave-it” offers, meaning that an ISP can’t refuse to serve customers who don’t consent to the use and sharing of their information for commercial purposes. So at least they can't cut you off entirely if you don't con…

But can they charge a lot more if you don't consent?
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