Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories • Hacker News Board

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#151

Post by JDiculous » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 9:58 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #146

JDiculous wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Academic research jobs, despite poor pay and conditions, are still some of the hardest positions to get. The demand for those jobs far, far outstrips supply. Well that's exactly the problem. We as a society have decided that our brightest minds should be working in finance. I think that's outrageous, and that we should be utilizing their minds for the greater good instead. In other words, we need to increase the su…

> In other words, we need to increase the supply of these research jobs, and make them more attractive then working in finance. That's a fair summary. My core point was that it's far more a matter of constrained research positions rather than finance being so alluring. It's not hard to make a research position more attractive to most bright minds than finance: you just have to offer autonomy, a bit of prestige and wo…

I agree.

Regarding prop trading, prop trading itself is the betting of the firm's own money for profit. I equated it to gambling because that's what it is. On a net basis, this doesn't really benefit society because it's essentially a zero sum game.

Market making on the other hand does benefit society by providing/ensuring liquidity.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#152

Post by johncolanduoni » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 10:47 PM UTC

hprotagonist wrote: post #48

kkylin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. In some fields, such as mathematics (applied & pure), one can squeak by without a grant, and many do. This has to do with the funding model in different fields -- math departments tend to have enough TA positions to support all their grad students, which lightens the pressure to secure funding. Of course the trade-off is time spent teaching lower-division courses vs actually doing research. As for tenure,…

Like i said. In the physical sciences, you can't do it. Math is not a physical science -- and you can get stunning breakthroughs without anything except a quiet room, a pad of paper, a pencil, and a trash can. (old joke: /s/math/philosophy and remove the trash can!) This is not true if you're a microbiologist.

The funding requirements for theoretical physics aren't really any different from mathematics (and like mathematics, there's usually more than enough TA positions to go around).

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#153

Post by auntienomen » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 11:01 PM UTC

T-A wrote: post #117

Bartweiss wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this used to explain the odd dovetailing of research and lecturing. There was a point where this made inherent sense - no one but research experts could educate new students, and students were attempting to quickly reach the state of the art. That's long past - a complex analysis expert with no training in education is a terrible candidate to teach basic multivariable calculus. And yet the whole thing makes…

"When I was at Princeton in the 1940s I could see what happened to those great minds at the Institute for Advanced Study, who had been specially selected for their tremendous brains and were now given this opportunity to sit in this lovely house by the woods there, with no classes to teach, with no obligations whatsoever. These poor bastards could now sit and think clearly all by themselves, OK? So they don't get any…

This doesn't really describe life at the IAS. Maybe in Feynman's day, but it wasn't my experience. If you're at IAS, you're continually surrounded by lots of very bright people who are trying to solve problems and understand things. Lots of conferences, lots of visitors. There's always someone to talk to or something new to learn. It's probably the most stimulative environment I've ever encountered.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#154

Post by Analemma_ » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 11:22 PM UTC

JDiculous wrote: post #142

tikhonj wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This question comes up in most discussions about finance and trading. I think it's the wrong question to ask. Academic research jobs, despite poor pay and conditions, are still some of the hardest positions to get . The demand for those jobs far, far outstrips supply. It's hard to get into a decent PhD program and then basically impossible to get a decent faculty position (or join MSR or whatever). Candidates aren't…

> Academic research jobs, despite poor pay and conditions, are still some of the hardest positions to get. The demand for those jobs far, far outstrips supply. Well that's exactly the problem. We as a society have decided that our brightest minds should be working in finance. I think that's outrageous, and that we should be utilizing their minds for the greater good instead. In other words, we need to increase the su…

> We as a society have decided that our brightest minds should be working in finance

"society" hasn't decided anything. Under capitalism, money flows towards where it is allocated most efficiently and gets the highest rate of return, which is apparently to employ researchers in the finance sector. If you have an issue with that, take it up with capitalism.

> we need to increase the supply of these research jobs, and make them more attractive then working in finance.

Barring the revolution I vaguely implied above, these two things would require lots of money and lots of money, respectively. Have fun asking for it in 2016's political environment.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#155

Post by alex_hirner » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 11:24 PM UTC

neuromantik8086 wrote: post #69

martincmartin wrote: post #26

Many of these people will leave for academia. Some of them have spare time, or maybe will have spare time after their kids are grown, or will be able to retire early. Then they could become citizen scientists [1], independent scientists [2], etc. Like independent film or video games, they couldn't compete head-on with big budget research. But they could presumably make progress in areas ignored by them: longer term,…

This is why I'm a fan of open data / data sharing, and why I wish federal grants would more emphasize intermediate steps that could lead to papers rather than the production of papers themselves. The barriers to data collection are quite large (it's at least $1 million to acquire an MRI scanner in my field, neuroimaging; a huge fixed cost that most individuals would never be able to afford), but the cost of hosting t…

Funding bodies emphasize data sharing more and more. However, that is along or after a publication.

No one has figured out academic attribution of data-only in a satisfactory way yet, but some noteworthy attempts exist. E.g. https://www.elsevier.com/connect/new-data-journal-lets-resea...

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#156

Post by neuromantik8086 » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 11:25 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #92

eanzenberg wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes!!! You will undoubtedly make a greater impact by earning as much as you can and donating it to causes later in life. Some people think research or science is the only path to a better society but in all honesty it may just take paying people in a poor country to plant trees.

Indeed. Research may be the thing that directly betters the society, but in current economy, one can often do more by applying their skills on the market and using the gains to fund researchers. I think things are fine as long as we have both researchers and people funding research, each working to the best of their specialized skills. That said, research is seriously underfunded.

For some reason, I always feel like the following quote from Emo Philips encapsulates this sentiment really well (and it's a sentiment I feel quite often):

"When I was a little boy, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised, the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me."

Sometimes to get what you want you have to sell out or otherwise find an unorthodox means to your desired end state.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#157

Post by neuromantik8086 » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 11:33 PM UTC

jawilson2 wrote: post #44

JDiculous wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't it feel like a waste of your talents to have society employing you full-time to make rich people richer via gambling in the financial markets rather than something more beneficial to society? I don't blame you at all (I'm sure your quality of life is magnitudes of order better, and I'd do the same in your position) and this isn't personal at all, it just pains me that our brightest graduates are working in fi…

I hope you aren't downvoted for this, as this is basically my exact thought process for the last few years. > make rich people richer It is prop trading, so we are making ourselves richer, technically. We do a lot of charity work and donations with schools, etc. > Doesn't it feel like a waste of your talents Absolutely. However, I also like not having to beg my toddler to eat the food in front of him because payday i…

Working in finance and sponsoring science aren't mutually exclusive. Some open source tools that are now mainstays in the scientific Python stack originated in finance (pandas is perhaps the most prominent example). It's highly doubtful that any of these tools would have been funded using traditional grants, so... positive externalities ahoy!

Furthermore, firms such as DE Shaw and Renaissance Technologies directly impact research by funding parallel non-profit science organizations (DE Shaw Research and the Simons Foundation respectively).

So it's not really a zero sum game at all.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#158

Post by pvaldes » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 11:44 PM UTC

hash-set wrote: post #81

Having gone through a lot of what is discussed in the article, I have concluded that academic research careers are for rich people only. I didn't even have student loans, but the pay was ridiculous given how many years of my 20s I spent in school, i.e. not making any income. Retirement is a real thing you know? So is getting old and having poor health. The comments on the nature.com page are interesting, too. No matt…

> I have concluded that academic research careers are for rich people only.

100% correct. There is a lot of artifitial barriers with the only purpose of deter the poor, introverted, physically disabled, unable to lie convincingly, or coming from incorrect countries to pass.

Maybe we should warn young people to not spending too much time doing science until reaching 50 years old or so. Science, as we understand it currently, is not much different to doing drugs. Will slurp all your money with some glimpses of a promised paradise, isolate you from friends and family, will boost your stress levels, increase your probability of having cancer and will damage your health. Your opportunities of having children or a good life will be seriously handicapped. I wonder why is not forbidden still.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#159

Post by dilemma » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 12:04 AM UTC

T-A wrote: post #117

Bartweiss wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this used to explain the odd dovetailing of research and lecturing. There was a point where this made inherent sense - no one but research experts could educate new students, and students were attempting to quickly reach the state of the art. That's long past - a complex analysis expert with no training in education is a terrible candidate to teach basic multivariable calculus. And yet the whole thing makes…

"When I was at Princeton in the 1940s I could see what happened to those great minds at the Institute for Advanced Study, who had been specially selected for their tremendous brains and were now given this opportunity to sit in this lovely house by the woods there, with no classes to teach, with no obligations whatsoever. These poor bastards could now sit and think clearly all by themselves, OK? So they don't get any…

He sounds bitter.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#160

Post by xamuel » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 12:22 AM UTC

Pure math phd here, now working in finance.

On a personal level I wish I could've been a research professor.

But on an objective level, in pure math the invisible hand of the market is acting correctly. There's already so much amazing pure math published, you could devote your whole life just to understanding 1/100th of the math published in the 1990s, to say nothing of the stuff published in 2016.

We don't need more basic researchers right now.

Sucks though that a lot of people (like me) have to watch a life dream crumble, though.