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Open Salaries: Outcomes

blog.lunarlogic.io

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Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#71

Post by ysavir »

noddingham wrote: post #60
ransom1538 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I apologize for the reddit style. I deserve the down votes, which I will happily pay. Using a position of power to force employees to divulge personal information really pisses me off.

There are three companion posts to this one that you might want to read because they'll fill in some assumptions you're making. Primarily, for existing employees the program was opt-in, such that "[n]ot joining would mean that others won’t know about that person’s salary and that person wouldn’t have access to the salary list."

So that person then is forbidden from attending these meetings?

There are two problems with that:

1. Even if employees get to opt out, others still know they opted out. And that can create mistrust on both sides. "Why did Bob opt out? What does he have to hide? Is he making more than everyone else? Is this transparent salaries thing just a way to keep the lower paid people thinking they're actually average?"

2. By excluding those people from the salary meetings, the company basically creates an "in club", the people that know more than everyone else. The opt-out people are now no longer just opting-out, they are literally being kept in the dark about things being shared with others. And like in scenario 1, that will breed mistrust.

Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#72

Post by ellisv »

Reminds me of 360-degree feedback -- which may not lead directly to a raise but provide the employee with frequent feedback and build social support for the reviewee.

Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#73

Post by TeMPOraL »

takingflac wrote: post #39
co_dh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, are you sure that everybody is paid according to that table? Or it's just a guide line? Secondly, if it's true, then the salary is not related to performance, and I would image people just stay there, the longer the higher salary.

This sums up most government jobs. Also, the job security is an added bonus. When was the last time you heard of the government having a mass layoff?

2013?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_governme...

Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#74

Post by st3v3r »

ransom1538 wrote: post #42
maxaf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to be an asshole.

First, I apologize for the reddit style. I deserve the down votes, which I will happily pay. Using a position of power to force employees to divulge personal information really pisses me off.

What personal information was divulged?

Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#75

Post by scarmig »

Hmm. My experience tells me that a lot of this depends on the details of the team, and that there isn't a right-for-everyone policy.

My story:

I worked for a company that paid a bit below market salaries, for the SF Bay Area. I was on a team with two more junior engineers. At one point one disclosed to me that they felt underpaid. That led to a salary discussion where I explained that the company habitually underpaid people, and I was happy to share my salary with them so they would know they're not the only ones underpaid (and also, implicitly, so they'd know if they were getting taken advantage of, since I'm all about employees looking out for each other).

As it turned out, however, I was making around 40% more than both of them. Some of that was due to more experience, but it was more a matter of me being underpaid versus them being outright screwed. Naturally they went and asked for a well-deserved raise, and the company, of course, said no.

This changed the team dynamics in a fundamental, toxic way. It engendered bitterness from them not only toward the company but to me as well, which ultimately led to all of us leaving the company for greener pastures but with lots of bad feelings all around.

You could say the takeaway is don't work for companies out to screw their workers, but that's most of them.

Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#76

Post by hx87 »

brianwawok wrote: post #54
st3v3r wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a top performer, you can also see that the company is not paying you at the top of people they're paying.

But I am not sure you need transparency for this? Can usually get close to ranges if you ask a few coworker friends and/or interview around.

> Can usually get close to ranges if you ask a few coworker friends and/or interview around.

Isn't that transparency, although in a very biased and limited form? Why would having more transparency reduce your leverage? It's easier to play the right cards when you know what cards are in play.

Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#77

Post by brianwawok »

hx87 wrote: post #76
brianwawok wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I am not sure you need transparency for this? Can usually get close to ranges if you ask a few coworker friends and/or interview around.

> Can usually get close to ranges if you ask a few coworker friends and/or interview around. Isn't that transparency, although in a very biased and limited form? Why would having more transparency reduce your leverage? It's easier to play the right cards when you know what cards are in play.

> Why would having more transparency reduce your leverage?

Because of jealousy.

There have to be a good 10-20 software companies with this Open Salary thing. From them, find one where for two people with the same # of years of experience, person A makes 2x what person B makes. From what I see, they all more or less settle on a (base pay) + (# of years * multiplier) + (maybe a location bonus) = Salary. I don't see variables in there for (he is awesome)

For a counter example, I can point you to wallstreet or finance in Chicago, and show you 100s of people where people at the same level make as much as a 2x pay difference.

Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#78

Post by news_to_me »

scarmig wrote: post #75

Hmm. My experience tells me that a lot of this depends on the details of the team, and that there isn't a right-for-everyone policy. My story: I worked for a company that paid a bit below market salaries, for the SF Bay Area. I was on a team with two more junior engineers. At one point one disclosed to me that they felt underpaid. That led to a salary discussion where I explained that the company habitually underpaid…

> You could say the takeaway is don't work for companies out to screw their workers, but that's most of them.

Seems like this is something transparent salary policies might change.

Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#79

Post by hx87 »

brianwawok wrote: post #36
aantix wrote: post #32

If you're any good at your job, you should avoid these open companies like the plague. Don't piss away your leverage..

This got downvoted, and the tone is a bit harsh.. but it does speak a bit of truth. What happens to the guy in open salary co who is legit 50% better than everyone else? Do his peers vote to give him 50% more money? Or does it settle on sort of a union style pay scale, where everyone with the same # of years of work makes the same money (which is great for the worst performances, and terrible for the best performers)

> What happens to the guy in open salary co who is legit 50% better than everyone else? Do his peers vote to give him 50% more money?

Presumably, that's how it works.

Re: Open Salaries: Outcomes

#80

Post by crdoconnor »

gwbas1c wrote: post #51
crdoconnor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay market rate and be honest about it? I don't understand the problem here. Support agents are unlikely to demand a developer's salary.

There is no objective definition of what "market rate" is once you get into skilled labor. This is, in part, because every job will value someone slightly differently depending on the unique situation.

And?

That's still not a reason to be secretive. In fact it was cited by the article as one of the great positives of salary openness: you got much more accurate feedback much more quickly which made it easier to make those tricker decisions.

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