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White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

reuters.com

281–290 of 421 posts

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#281
post #146

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. To go meta for a moment: I think that this sort of statement exposes a flaw that many of us have in debates. It's related to the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, but is not exactly the same thing. I take it as one of my priors that people at news.yc are intelli…

Freedom to contract is unlimited. You can draw up a contract with any terms you can imagine.

Limited government has limited power to enforce contracts. Take, as an example, an assassination contract. You can write one up and sign it. If you or your hit man later breach the contract, you cannot sue each other in any civilized government's civil courts. You may, however, be able to engage a black-market arbiter to resolve your dispute, and that arbiter may allow terms of the contract that are otherwise illegal to be considered in rendering their judgment.

This is, in effect, saying that no government court will honor any non-compete clause in a contract. It is not saying that you cannot put such clauses into your contracts. But you won't be able to convince the government's justice services to enforce it for you (at lesser cost) if you do.

As government is widely considered a social contract for mutual benefit, a democratic form can certainly alter it such that government power is less readily wielded by those who might use it to harm or exploit the people. Businesses that use non-compete clauses can either assent to the change or start shopping for new jurisdictions.

With respect to your #3, having to pay an arbitrary and unnecessary barrier to entry in order to work profitably using a particular skill set is, in my opinion, unconscionable. It is indicative of an environment where the worker has little bargaining power. Any sane group would band together and use their collective power and mutual self-interest to halt that extraction of rents from their members. Since certain types of worker seem to be knee-jerk opposed to collective bargaining organizations, that leaves government edict.

Your #2 cannot be generalized. It can only be fairly judged on a contract by contract basis. But when enough unconscionable non-compete agreements cross a legislator's desk, the practice is judged by the worst examples. And the worst examples are when big companies collude to depress worker wages, using agreements that are non-negotiable and provide no tangible benefit to the employee. Some people were abusing it, and the only cost-effective way to stop the abuse also stops many of the legitimate uses.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#282
post #273
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logical conclusion of a regulation-free system is of corporations large enough to destroy competition before it starts.

That's not the logical conclusion. Have you ever seen a large corp and how inefficient they are? The only reason they can remain large is because they can afford to buy politicians and legislation to keep their competitors small. Big Corp creates new regulations to protect their business, the most clear examples are in telecommunications and the music/movie/copyrightable industries. If we removed more regulations tod…

It doesn't really matter how inefficient you are if you have the cash to buyout any potential competitors before they have a chance to threaten your bottom line.

In a purely capitalist society wealth (power) accumulates at the top. Money creates money so whomever starts out with the most money tends to win. This is why highly capitalist societies turn into Dubai, with an ultra rich ruling class and a serf/slave class with little in between.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#283

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

> Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements

> Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered by NDA and in some cases SEC regulations about insider trading.

This is largely unenforceable as I'm sure you're aware. The fact is that legally preventing someone from working at a competitor is simply the only effective way of deterring IP getting to a competitor.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#284
post #146

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. To go meta for a moment: I think that this sort of statement exposes a flaw that many of us have in debates. It's related to the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, but is not exactly the same thing. I take it as one of my priors that people at news.yc are intelli…

Nobody is calling anyone an idiot, just greedy and amoral.

Fundamentally, you should have the freedom to work in your profession without fear. If a Jimmy John sandwich makers skills are precious things, there's an easy way to retain those skills -- pay the worker what they deserve.

If you think that's unfair to the business person, that's fine, but don't call yourself a capitalist or a good person.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So how is this good for anyone but John? How about the consumer/society as a whole who now widely benefits from advanced technology being proliferated through the industry instead of being hoarded by one company?

I agree, but if we want that we should start from demolishing "patents" and many other similar more basic issues first, but we all know why that's not going to happen. Secondly when you do that, aren't you actually killing commercial research? Why would I spend $10M to research something if one of my employees can just take that know-how and move to my competitor?

>I agree, but if we want that we should start from demolishing "patents" and many other similar more basic issues first, but we all know why that's not going to happen.

It's not going to happen because your logic is off a little.

Patents are there to promote growth to society, not to promote growth of the patent holder. It works because it's set up to be a win-win for both.

If at any point the patent system hurts growth to society, it should be revamped or eliminated.

Patents are not fundamental human rights. Nor are copyrights. They exist to serve the society, not the holder. Once they cease to do so, they should be removed.

So the question is: Do non-competes serve society's interests?

How about no-poaching agreements? They're almost like non-competes.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#286
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. To go meta for a moment: I think that this sort of statement exposes a flaw that many of us have in debates. It's related to the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, but is not exactly the same thing. I take it as one of my priors that people at news.yc are intelli…

This reads like someone who feels that while they were studying the works of Ayn Rand, the rest of the world was eating Oreos and watching Jersey Shore.

Aren't those roughly equivalent activities?

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noncompetes are usually helpful in the service industry. If I hire you in my HVAC business and spend a year sending you on client jobs, then you leave, start your own HVAV business and start contacting all of my clients that I sent you to work on...that's a problem. Without a means of preventing that it's almost impossible to grow a service business.

Client lists are covered under NDA and you can add a non-solicitation clause which is different from a non-compete and seems both reasonable and fair. NDA + non-solicitation: You can't start your own HVAC company by handing your sales person a copy of my client list and calling everyone who currently works with me. Non-Compete: You can't start your own HVAC company. Full-stop. Do you see the difference? Do you unders…

You do realize this article explicitly highlights a Jimmy Johns non-compete which was about not working within N miles from a Jimmy Johns restaurant?

I do not think this proposal makes the distinction that you make. Both are in the crosshairs.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#288

Today, after completing almost a month of my trial at a new job, HR asked me to sign a document on Stamp paper with a very vague 1 year non-compete clause. All my objections to the same were casually shrugged of by her, by saying they don't use it until I would directly hurt the revenue of the employer. When I refused to sign it she said that it might be hard to offer me a job in the case I don't sign it. Which very…

> It also said all the IP/Products/patents I develop, even in my own time, during my tenure would belong by the employer. These clauses are getting worse too, claiming what you develop up to a year after you leave the company. I had to sign one of these or not take the job, non-negotiable. Not taking the job wasn't a choice at that time, sadly.

This, to me, is the shadiest part of non-competes. I've only gotten one, but it was after I had quit my previous job, and moved across the country. Am I supposed to say no, now that I've already moved and have no other current source of income for my family?

Shame on me for not asking up-front what I would have to sign, but also, how is it legal to start throwing new contracts at someone, when they weren't part of the original agreement in the first place.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#289

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

AFAIK and from my own experience, non-competes are not enforceable in most states, or have little to no legal teeth. Anyone concerned should consult with an attorney.

Somewhat related, where folks usually get into trouble is reuse of intellectual property or derivative works. IP laws actually have teeth and are enforced in numerous countries.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#290
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. To go meta for a moment: I think that this sort of statement exposes a flaw that many of us have in debates. It's related to the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, but is not exactly the same thing. I take it as one of my priors that people at news.yc are intelli…

1) deontological: freedom to contract is always a good thing. It is a human right, and government has no legitimate moral power to remove that right from people. That's not a strong argument either. You could substitute "contract" with anything. I say this as a staunch libertarian. Government restrictions aren't bad because "government", but because restrictions. The free market works best when government restricts t…

Fortunately, our current legal system does not recognize contracts for slavery or indentured servitude (other than schools loans).
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