Live data from Hacker News

White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

reuters.com

241–250 of 421 posts

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#241
post #146

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. To go meta for a moment: I think that this sort of statement exposes a flaw that many of us have in debates. It's related to the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, but is not exactly the same thing. I take it as one of my priors that people at news.yc are intelli…

This reads like someone who feels that while they were studying the works of Ayn Rand, the rest of the world was eating Oreos and watching Jersey Shore.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#242

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

> So your employer underpays you by 40% and treats you badly? You want to leave for greener pastures at that hip new startup that offered you a Senior Engineer gig? Well, sorry to say you have a mortgage, a wife, and 2 kids and that non-compete says you are only legally allowed to be a burger flipper for two years after quitting, that software engineering is verboten.

Whoah! Way too close to home. Only 1 kid and 70% underpaid.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. There are many "temporarily embarrassed" entrepreneurs that read HN who can't stomach the thought of their future tech lead stealing their idea. I personally worked for one such person, whose startup was so new that employees were being paid only with shares, but still had about 10 pages of legal documentation for new employees to…

As most readers here would agree, ideas are worth almost nothing but executing on them is the value.

> As most readers here would agree

And yet we are still confronted with NDAs just to listen to "Facebook for Farmers" pitches.

Perhaps it's better to say those entrepreneurs are afraid of their implementers leaving with all of the domain specific knowledge; believing that it would allow them re-create the product and outmaneuver the entrepreneur.

Of course it's never really that easy, but so few fears are rational.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#244

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. There are many "temporarily embarrassed" entrepreneurs that read HN who can't stomach the thought of their future tech lead stealing their idea. I personally worked for one such person, whose startup was so new that employees were being paid only with shares, but still had about 10 pages of legal documentation for new employees to…

I suppose lawyers also like to justify their salaries by inventing more things to worry about and creating a sense of fear (patent BS, etc)

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#245
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. To go meta for a moment: I think that this sort of statement exposes a flaw that many of us have in debates. It's related to the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, but is not exactly the same thing. I take it as one of my priors that people at news.yc are intelli…

1) deontological: freedom to contract is always a good thing. It is a human right, and government has no legitimate moral power to remove that right from people. That's not a strong argument either. You could substitute "contract" with anything. I say this as a staunch libertarian. Government restrictions aren't bad because "government", but because restrictions. The free market works best when government restricts t…

>>[...] restricts the freedom to restrict freedom [...]

That's a great turn of phrase. I'll try to use it the next time somebody asks me to summarize the GPL, which has similar restrictions built in as per Stallman's original intent.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#246
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you work at DWAVE for 5 years and learn everything you know about Quantum Computing there - and go to Google to work on Quantum Computing - then there is basically a 100% chance that you are passing on 'know how' and 'trade secrets' - otherwise - Google would not hire you. That isn't trade secrets, it's experience.

Exactly. The views on this are so twisted in US. People actualy believe that its the company giving away everything. Truth is if youve worked on quantum computers for five years youve generated so much of this know how. Youve invested ideas, energy, time - its you givin away knowledge not company.

Also, was this that employees first job? Certainly he gained experience somewhere else first. Why should the first company benefit from that? It's the circle of life.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#247

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

Noncompetes are usually helpful in the service industry. If I hire you in my HVAC business and spend a year sending you on client jobs, then you leave, start your own HVAV business and start contacting all of my clients that I sent you to work on...that's a problem. Without a means of preventing that it's almost impossible to grow a service business.

No business has a fundamental right to exist. If you hire me for your HVAC business, and I manage to leave, build a competing business, and shut you down, then that isn't my problem. Your business never had a right to be free of competition from me. Period.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#248
post #146

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. To go meta for a moment: I think that this sort of statement exposes a flaw that many of us have in debates. It's related to the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, but is not exactly the same thing. I take it as one of my priors that people at news.yc are intelli…

First you're assuming a certain level of intelligence and then using that to argue from authority; that the arguments put forth on news.yc are somehow "better" because of this assumed intelligence of the news.yc commenters. I'm sorry but each comment and argument must stand on its own merits and the facts, it cannot rely on the supposed intelligence of the commenters.

Now let's get down to the real business of your arguments.

> Freedom to contract is always a good thing

This is only true if the people signing the contract are not coerced, whether by force or by poverty into signing that contract.

> Freedom to contract is a human right

So then you agree that it's a human right when it's not coerced yes?

> Government has no legitimate moral power to remove that right from people

It does if you follow the social contract. It does not remove the right but it does impose restrictions that follow from other human rights. It definitely has a legitimate moral power to impose restrictions. Whether you consider governments in general to be legitimate or moral is up to you but in this case? We have loads of precedent showing that in certain cases it has been absolutely necessary for governments to impose restrictions on contracts. Not to mention that we have courts, which you do not address. Are courts the only place where the judge or jury of your peers has a legitimate moral power to remove or impose restrictions on contracts?

> I have local knowledge regarding both my costs and my benefits from signing a non-compete contract.

Quite an assumption to make.

> Government legislators and bureaucrats, at some great remove, has almost no knowledge of either my costs or benefits.

I can agree with this though it would have to be supported; they do collect all sorts of data so they may have some knowledge, greater than "almost no knowledge".

The argument against non-competes is that they place limits on freedom of speech and freedom of expression. They put a limit on employment options as well and are harming my future earnings which are very much real in contrast to the imaginary losses. Willingness to sign a non-compete is not a competitive advantage for employees, it's the equivalent of saying "I am willing to be treated like a slave" or "I will work for free". It's degrading and violates fundamental human rights. You cannot be in support of less restricted commerce and still support non-competes. You cannot be in favour of fundamental human rights and still support non-competes which take away or immensely restrict those rights.

Your arguments, in the end, contradict one another. I will not comment on the arrogance of your approach here.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#249
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You assume that "freedom to contract" means that both parties enter with equal knowledge and equal bargaining power. No, it doesn't. I'm Hayek-friendly, so I don't think two entities EVER have the same knowledge. "Freedom to contract" no more implies equal knowledge than "freedom to drink" implies equal knowledge of brewing, or "freedom to date" implies equal attractiveness.

I have been told by a lawyer friend of mine that for a contact to be valid both parties must have the ability to negotiate it. He said that is why most non-competes are unenforceable in the first place as you don't really have the leverage to negotiate that for most jobs. I took his advice and advantage of his letterhead and told a previous employer to pound sand when they wanted me to not work for a competitor. Work…

Perhaps to help establish a lack of negotiating leverage, one should always ask for the non-compete clause to be removed in writing and then save the (highly likely) employer pushback for future use.

In general, it's a good rule of thumb to archive written communications (paper or electronic) for any deal, but it's easier said than done when part of the negotiation takes place over the phone.

Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers

#250

I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…

>The only thing a non-compete does is say that Employee A cannot work in their chosen field for some period of time after they are fired or quit. In doing so it offers no consideration or compensation typically in the contract. I know you probably know this, but it doesn't have to be laid out explicitly to be compensated. The compensation would be present silently through higher wages, better perks, higher vacation e…

What about non competes for low wage workers like subway and mcdonalds? Cuz thats beeen starting to happen.
Post reply on HN