I like how anyone even mentioning IP is downvoted to hell. It really shows you what market Ycombinator is really in. Every single comment is either someone's personal narrative, or a ridiculous troll where "OMG WHY" is the only thing they say in each sentence. Wow, I wonder how this ever became law when YCombinator commentators are so opposed to it?
White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
211–220 of 421 posts
Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
#212It is now standard for unskilled workers too as it is included in most job application / offers.
A $12 / hr. part time Walmart worker can not work at another retailer or online company or Amazon warehouse. The scope is defined by the company.
It is used as a threat.
Besides, if someone wants to steal company secrets they will regardless of a signed paper.
In the '80s worked with a Chinese C/unix contractor that ported all code to China. It was comm type work. No NDA would prevent a criminal.
Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
#213Today, after completing almost a month of my trial at a new job, HR asked me to sign a document on Stamp paper with a very vague 1 year non-compete clause. All my objections to the same were casually shrugged of by her, by saying they don't use it until I would directly hurt the revenue of the employer. When I refused to sign it she said that it might be hard to offer me a job in the case I don't sign it. Which very…
> It also said all the IP/Products/patents I develop, even in my own time, during my tenure would belong by the employer.
These clauses are getting worse too, claiming what you develop up to a year after you leave the company. I had to sign one of these or not take the job, non-negotiable. Not taking the job wasn't a choice at that time, sadly.
Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Client lists are covered under NDA and you can add a non-solicitation clause which is different from a non-compete and seems both reasonable and fair. NDA + non-solicitation: You can't start your own HVAC company by handing your sales person a copy of my client list and calling everyone who currently works with me. Non-Compete: You can't start your own HVAC company. Full-stop. Do you see the difference? Do you unders…
See whenever I've seen a noncompete like that it's specifically said "within 5 miles of this location, up to 2 years, cannot contact any clients of this business" I'm in a right to work state though and that means that noncompetes don't hold up at all unless they have a reasonable and non excessive scope. In a right to work state nobody can prevent you from earning a living so in order for a noncompete to hold it has…
> "within 5 miles of this location, up to 2 years, cannot contact any clients of this business"
What you just described is a textbook non-solicitation agreement.
A non-compete would read something like: "You covenant and agree that, during the term of your employment with the Company and for twelve (12) months after the termination thereof, regardless of the reason for the employment termination, you will not, directly or indirectly, anywhere in the Territory, on behalf of any Competitive Business perform the same or substantially the same Job Duties."
In a contract, terms like "Competitive Business", "Job Duties", "Territory", and "Company" would be previously defined. What this says in essence though is that for 1 year after your termination (either you quit or are let go) you cannot do the same job anywhere within the "Territory" which could be the city, state, country, region, or world-wide depending on how its defined in the contract.
So, let's say in your HVAC example. A non-compete says you cannot work in HVAC at all for the term. A non-solicitation, like you says prevents contacting clients of the "Company".
Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
#215I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…
> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. To go meta for a moment: I think that this sort of statement exposes a flaw that many of us have in debates. It's related to the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, but is not exactly the same thing. I take it as one of my priors that people at news.yc are intelli…
The Jimmy John's burger flippers had the power to individually negotiate their contracts?
Here your #2 conflicts with your #3. If a person is so desperate to find entry-level minimum-wage work that she would pay any price to do so, then she doesn't actually have the freedom to negotiate contracts.
Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
See whenever I've seen a noncompete like that it's specifically said "within 5 miles of this location, up to 2 years, cannot contact any clients of this business" I'm in a right to work state though and that means that noncompetes don't hold up at all unless they have a reasonable and non excessive scope. In a right to work state nobody can prevent you from earning a living so in order for a noncompete to hold it has…
> "within 5 miles of this location, up to 2 years, cannot contact any clients of this business" What you just described is a textbook non-solicitation agreement. A non-compete would read something like: "You covenant and agree that, during the term of your employment with the Company and for twelve (12) months after the termination thereof, regardless of the reason for the employment termination, you will not, direct…
That's definitely where the disconnect is then. The non-compete you are describing would be totally illegal in a right to work state.
I'm 36 years old, have run a business and dealt with a lot of contracts like this for clients in the area and this is the first time I've ever heard of a specific "non-solicitation" agreement. My guess is that's because around this area it's what we understand a "non-compete" to be.
I can't imagine anyone would ever sign a document that said they couldn't work in their field at all because they worked for this company.
Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that when it hits the news it's generally a lawsuit against a VP, but you have no idea how many times lawyers send nasty letters, which are pretty effective.
Yep, letters cost almost nothing to send. Almost all employees have nothing to worry about for one reason. The corp will not go ahead with a lawsuit because the employee will almost always have no money or assets to take. It's amazing how pathological corporate behavior becomes when one views it from the money perspective.
But there's a chilling effect. For lots of potential employers, the existence of a non-compete that might be litigated is a complete non-starter. I worked for a small company and I know for a fact we passed on at least one person who had a non-compete that was unlikely to be litigated but it just wasn't worth the risk.
Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
Client lists are covered under NDA and you can add a non-solicitation clause which is different from a non-compete and seems both reasonable and fair. NDA + non-solicitation: You can't start your own HVAC company by handing your sales person a copy of my client list and calling everyone who currently works with me. Non-Compete: You can't start your own HVAC company. Full-stop. Do you see the difference? Do you unders…
See whenever I've seen a noncompete like that it's specifically said "within 5 miles of this location, up to 2 years, cannot contact any clients of this business" I'm in a right to work state though and that means that noncompetes don't hold up at all unless they have a reasonable and non excessive scope. In a right to work state nobody can prevent you from earning a living so in order for a noncompete to hold it has…
> I'm in a right to work state though and that means that noncompetes don't hold up [...] In a right to work state nobody can prevent you from earning a living
Generally speaking, so-called right-to-work laws are about preventing an employer from requiring that all employees join a union. Maybe some of those laws are worded broadly enough to also cover non-compete contracts, but I've never seen any real indication of that being the case.
Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Client lists are covered under NDA and you can add a non-solicitation clause which is different from a non-compete and seems both reasonable and fair. NDA + non-solicitation: You can't start your own HVAC company by handing your sales person a copy of my client list and calling everyone who currently works with me. Non-Compete: You can't start your own HVAC company. Full-stop. Do you see the difference? Do you unders…
See whenever I've seen a noncompete like that it's specifically said "within 5 miles of this location, up to 2 years, cannot contact any clients of this business" I'm in a right to work state though and that means that noncompetes don't hold up at all unless they have a reasonable and non excessive scope. In a right to work state nobody can prevent you from earning a living so in order for a noncompete to hold it has…
Non-competes are enforceable in all fifty states except California, Oklahoma and North Dakota [1].
"Right to work" means you have the right to work without being required to join a union, i.e. it bans union shops where one must pay union dues or lose their job [2]. It is a response by 26 states to federal collective-bargaining laws.
[1] http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/understanding-noncomp...
Re: White House urges ban on non-compete agreements for many workers
#220I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes. They have literally no value to society, or to individual employees. They are a tool of restrictive coercion to stifle an employees freedom of movement in the job market. Trade secrets, IP, secret sauce: covered by NDA and IP assignment agreements Client lists, contract terms, sales strategies, reported metrics, financials: covered…
> I don't understand why there's so many people in the comments defending non-competes.
There are many "temporarily embarrassed" entrepreneurs that read HN who can't stomach the thought of their future tech lead stealing their idea.
I personally worked for one such person, whose startup was so new that employees were being paid only with shares, but still had about 10 pages of legal documentation for new employees to sign.