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Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

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Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#241

Post by wfunction »

megablast wrote: post #197
Gustomaximus wrote: post #154

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

I have seen this before. Some people will only take a job if they KNOW how to do the job. Others will take a job, and are confident they can learn it along the way. It might have more to do with that confidence than being poor.

I feel like there's a third category right in between: those who take a job only if the KNOW they can learn it along the way.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#242

Post by kagamine »

ap22213 wrote: post #213
malandrew wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a much better analysis on social mobility: https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-r...

I skimmed it, but I didn't see much of a point except that he seems to be implying that poor people are more likely to be less intelligent (or rich people are more likely to be more intelligent). So, let's say his analysis is correct. What then? Does it mean that we should, as a society, test for intelligence early in life and subsidize incomes appropriately? Or, just let the poor suffer if they don't have the correc…

It's probably not genetic. Ask any school teacher who does well in class and who struggles, who has ADHD and who concentrates for hours at a time and they will tell you diet and routine (also linked to wealth) are almost always obvious signals for success.

It's not scientific, but the kids that struggle eat frozen pizza and stay up late. It could be the teachers I know finding evidence where there is none, but year after in that job by all those teachers suggests otherwise.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#243

Post by imtringued »

randyrand wrote: post #192

Why should a meritocracy be individual based instead of family based? I personally think it's okay for families to give their inheritance/assistance to their children even if the children don't "deserve" it. etc. Working towards bettering your children lives is a reason many of us get up in the morning.

Going the other way is far worse. Imagine a 100% inheritance tax. You basically get punished for helping your children and encouraged to spend your remaining money in a unproductive way. Inheritance only affects the children when the parents are already dead. It's too late to achieve equality when the children are already in their 40s. They've benefited from their parents during the time they were alive the most. Even a low inheritance tax doesn't make sense because the money was already taxed when it was earned.

Equality is probably unachieveable unless we physically seperate parents from their children or abolish money altogether.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#244

Post by hkt »

nostrebored wrote: post #144
randomdata wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hmmm but it doesn't look so bad when you consider that 67% of poor college grads are at least 50-percentile in wealth Where does it show that? The chart you linked to shows income quintiles, not wealth. I couldn't find it in the article either, but may have overlooked it. A wealth visualization would be quite appropriate here though, as a high income does not necessarily lead to retaining wealth. Some suggest that…

I think this is overlooking another potential factor: Rich culture is better than poor culture. A college dropout who has grown up rich is going to be more likely to value knowledge than a poor person, will have been exposed to more money management, and being rich is positively correlated with making good life decisions. Contrast that with poor culture, where we know that the inverse is true in many cases: Knowledge…

Being poor is actually associated with making modally appropriate decisions. That is to say that people adjust to it.

Case in point is discounting: offer someone £20 today or £100 in a year. A person poor enough will likely take the money now, and this is because it has more value to them now.

People aren't awful, they're adjusted to circumstances that are awful, being the products of a sick system. Properly provisioned welfare - a genuine safety net instead of a humiliation - could prevent the circumstances that lead to this kind of adjustment.

Economics has much to say about how people value things differently based on their circumstances. There is no "better" or "worse".

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#245

Post by hkt »

randyrand wrote: post #192

Why should a meritocracy be individual based instead of family based? I personally think it's okay for families to give their inheritance/assistance to their children even if the children don't "deserve" it. etc. Working towards bettering your children lives is a reason many of us get up in the morning.

Merit is to do with worth, not net worth. You can't inherit the ability to be good at anything, but you can inherit money and property.

See the British upper class for a fine example of wealthy inheritors void of merit.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#246

Post by hkt »

imtringued wrote: post #243
randyrand wrote: post #192

Why should a meritocracy be individual based instead of family based? I personally think it's okay for families to give their inheritance/assistance to their children even if the children don't "deserve" it. etc. Working towards bettering your children lives is a reason many of us get up in the morning.

Going the other way is far worse. Imagine a 100% inheritance tax. You basically get punished for helping your children and encouraged to spend your remaining money in a unproductive way. Inheritance only affects the children when the parents are already dead. It's too late to achieve equality when the children are already in their 40s. They've benefited from their parents during the time they were alive the most. Eve…

Not even slightly true. 100% inheritance tax means relative equality between members of the same generation. There are still differences in upbringing to contend with, but the extra tax money can fund education or other compensatory measures.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#247

Post by hkt »

glazer wrote: post #207
randyrand wrote: post #192

Why should a meritocracy be individual based instead of family based? I personally think it's okay for families to give their inheritance/assistance to their children even if the children don't "deserve" it. etc. Working towards bettering your children lives is a reason many of us get up in the morning.

That is what I often wonder on the larger discussion of "privlege". What draws the line between your parents or grandparents having worked for a better life for you and having some sort of shameful "privelege"? I understand that there is a difference when it comes down to historical oppressions of entire categories of people, but I feel that many people often confuse that and "rich parents vs. poor parents", seeking…

We have a saying in Britain, that few people remember now: "rise with your class, not above it".

That comes from an understanding that making the best of living under a system that creates opportunities to be rich and opportunities to be poor is not the same as altering that system.

Really, the idea of privilege as people use it now is too individualistic to make sense at the macro level.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#248

Post by imtringued »

rustynails wrote: post #127
abrahamepton wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the most HN comments ever. Without getting into the nature-vs-nurture debate for the trillionth time, "Actually, mostly a matter of genes because this is by far the biggest influence parents have on their kids" is a totally preposterous statement. Genes are certainly AN influence, but I think my parents' encouraging my nerdiness, buying me a graphing calculator in high school and surrounding me with co…

My view is anecdotal. I come from a family with adopted children. My siblings say how I talk, act and think like our parents. I am the only biological child of our parents. Does this prove IQ? No. however, I would be astounded if there was no relationship (just looks, voice, height, thought patterns, but no IQ correlation). At the same time, my kids are quite different from each other. However, my siblings' kids refl…

If we blame problems on genetics that means they are out of our hands. We cannot solve them. At least not without preventing reproduction of undesirable genes.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#249

Post by [deleted] »

Throwaway892375 wrote: post #230
rhgraysonii wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really hits home for me. I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied: "Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity." And its really true. My first engineering jo…

This is a throw away account. I'm writing this because I'm the embodiment of poor and the embodiment of lack of social mobility. As a child of divorce, I lived in affluent suburbia. However, everything was devoted to keeping the house and to food. There was next to nothing for anything else. I had three jobs going through high school. When I was in school I was told that I couldn't qualify for financial aid because o…

[deleted]

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#250

Post by [deleted] »

Throwaway892375 wrote: post #230
rhgraysonii wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really hits home for me. I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied: "Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity." And its really true. My first engineering jo…

This is a throw away account. I'm writing this because I'm the embodiment of poor and the embodiment of lack of social mobility. As a child of divorce, I lived in affluent suburbia. However, everything was devoted to keeping the house and to food. There was next to nothing for anything else. I had three jobs going through high school. When I was in school I was told that I couldn't qualify for financial aid because o…

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