Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong • Hacker News Board

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#231

Post by sundvor » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 7:30 AM UTC

Throwaway892375 wrote: post #230

rhgraysonii wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really hits home for me. I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied: "Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity." And its really true. My first engineering jo…

This is a throw away account. I'm writing this because I'm the embodiment of poor and the embodiment of lack of social mobility. As a child of divorce, I lived in affluent suburbia. However, everything was devoted to keeping the house and to food. There was next to nothing for anything else. I had three jobs going through high school. When I was in school I was told that I couldn't qualify for financial aid because o…

Speaking as a relatively new parent, what your father did is unfathomable to me.

It sounds like you got great skills, but need to be connected to someone who just doesn't take advantage of them. Were you working on Kerbal Space Program? Those devs surely got a raw deal too. Sadly the world is full of people caring only for themselves. But there are exceptions, and hopefully it'll be your turn to come across some of them soon.

I was going to say, can you do your own project? But it can be very hard to get started with that, finding the right idea etc. (At least it is for me.)

At any rate, essentially, just wanted to wish you all the best for the future.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#232

Post by croon » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 7:33 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #224

13of40 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a weird feeling to walk out of a store with a bag full of stuff and realize you have no idea how much any of it cost. Whenever that happens I think of that minor scandal when the nation found out the Clintons(?) didn't know the price of a gallon of milk.

I see not having to know prices as one of the best perks of being decently well off. I've had to count every penny when I was younger, and look for cheaper alternatives, and defer purchases, and it made money one of the big stressful things in my life. Eventually arning enough that I could stop thinking about it other than checking my balance now and again was far more liberating than any of the subsequent improvemen…

So much this.

But I would like to add to it. Not only is it emotionally liberating to be better off, but it actually frees you up practically as well. Like you said: count pennies, look for cheap alternatives, defer purchases. If I wanted to buy something when I was younger, I would save money for a year, then spend hours/days/weeks comparing prices, waiting for deals, etc. This lingered deep in me, and I had a hard time shaking it as an adult. It's only recently that I can decide to buy something, have a quick look at what's good and where it's cheapest, and then buy it.

I never want to go the other direction and purely equate time with money, but to some extent any of the meaningless time I spent worrying about money I now can make money, and when I don't feel like it, I can have time off, without worrying.

Sorry for the rant, but what I really wanted to get to is: Having money means having time and energy to learn more ~= making more money.

IMHO this article is obviously true.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#233

Post by morgante » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 7:42 AM UTC

Throwaway892375 wrote: post #230

rhgraysonii wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really hits home for me. I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied: "Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity." And its really true. My first engineering jo…

This is a throw away account. I'm writing this because I'm the embodiment of poor and the embodiment of lack of social mobility. As a child of divorce, I lived in affluent suburbia. However, everything was devoted to keeping the house and to food. There was next to nothing for anything else. I had three jobs going through high school. When I was in school I was told that I couldn't qualify for financial aid because o…

I mean this respectfully, but have you tried to do some introspection?

If you actually have the skills you claim, there is huge money to be made in hiring you as a programmer making $40k/year. Your background really should not be such a determining factor: I have clients who have literally never met me and have only the vaguest idea of who I am. It's all about making compelling work and demanding compensation for it.

If you think this is impossible, I would happily be that guy and pay you $40/hr (which is under market but a hell of a lot more than $20k a year) to work on client projects.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#234

Post by morgante » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 7:45 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #224

13of40 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a weird feeling to walk out of a store with a bag full of stuff and realize you have no idea how much any of it cost. Whenever that happens I think of that minor scandal when the nation found out the Clintons(?) didn't know the price of a gallon of milk.

I see not having to know prices as one of the best perks of being decently well off. I've had to count every penny when I was younger, and look for cheaper alternatives, and defer purchases, and it made money one of the big stressful things in my life. Eventually arning enough that I could stop thinking about it other than checking my balance now and again was far more liberating than any of the subsequent improvemen…

Seriously. Probably the biggest mentality shift I had was when I stopped looking at receipts/prices. At this point, the only prices I ever pay attention to are travel ones (hotels/airfare).

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#235

Post by imtringued » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 7:47 AM UTC

RangerScience wrote: post #38

paulpauper wrote: post #8

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/10/... Hmmm but it doesn't look so bad when you consider that 67% of poor college grads are at least 50-percentile in wealth, vs 49% of rich high school dropouts. I'm sure is even better when you compare poor high school dropouts vs. poor college graduates, which is why a college degree may still be worth the money and the best pathway out of poverty, especiall…

I like where you're going with this, but, it does a shit job of establishing what "poor" means. The words in the article first mention the middle class vs rich, which makes it harder to derive real conclusions. I mean, I think you're right - doesn't look so bad for the people in the "poor" category - we just don't know what category that actually is.

It compares the top 20% with the bottom 20%. It doesn't make much sense because a son of a doctor that dropped out of highschool is obviously going to earn less than a poor college graduate.

I also don't understand why they are comparing highschool dropouts with college graduates. The article should instead compare college dropout vs college graduate.

The only conclusion you can really draw is that the rich highschool dropouts have a very big safety net which should be obvious.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#236

Post by fucking_tragedy » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 7:47 AM UTC

glazer wrote: post #207

randyrand wrote: post #192

Why should a meritocracy be individual based instead of family based? I personally think it's okay for families to give their inheritance/assistance to their children even if the children don't "deserve" it. etc. Working towards bettering your children lives is a reason many of us get up in the morning.

That is what I often wonder on the larger discussion of "privlege". What draws the line between your parents or grandparents having worked for a better life for you and having some sort of shameful "privelege"? I understand that there is a difference when it comes down to historical oppressions of entire categories of people, but I feel that many people often confuse that and "rich parents vs. poor parents", seeking…

A person can be privileged because their parents worked hard to provide them with a good life. The person was born into a privileged situation.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#237

Post by collyw » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 7:54 AM UTC

randyrand wrote: post #192

Why should a meritocracy be individual based instead of family based? I personally think it's okay for families to give their inheritance/assistance to their children even if the children don't "deserve" it. etc. Working towards bettering your children lives is a reason many of us get up in the morning.

Inheritance is the opposite of meritocracy, which we supposedly believe in.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#238

Post by Throwaway892375 » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 8:02 AM UTC

sundvor wrote: post #231

Throwaway892375 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a throw away account. I'm writing this because I'm the embodiment of poor and the embodiment of lack of social mobility. As a child of divorce, I lived in affluent suburbia. However, everything was devoted to keeping the house and to food. There was next to nothing for anything else. I had three jobs going through high school. When I was in school I was told that I couldn't qualify for financial aid because o…

Speaking as a relatively new parent, what your father did is unfathomable to me. It sounds like you got great skills, but need to be connected to someone who just doesn't take advantage of them. Were you working on Kerbal Space Program? Those devs surely got a raw deal too. Sadly the world is full of people caring only for themselves. But there are exceptions, and hopefully it'll be your turn to come across some of t…

Thanks.

Yes, I've a couple projects. A couple are more popular than others. My own stuff has about two million total users. But for about the last four months, I've been working exclusively on creating some (combinatorial) design theory algorithms.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#239

Post by q-base » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 8:03 AM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #99

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that increases social mobility would be good. America is doing quite poorly in terms of social mobility, compared to other top-tier countries.

Surprisingly, there are some recent, more sophisticated studies indicating that our social mobility is a lot better than earlier thought, relative to the countries that are usually lauded for social mobility. For example, Scandinavian countries are famous as exemplars for how to be a developed country with high income mobility. But a recent paper focused on Denmark (the most income-mobile country in the group) in ord…

Coming from Denmark I can totally agree. Of course can't speak on behalf of US conditions, but NO we sure as hell haven't solved the redistribution problem here in Denmark. Haven't read the article you linked, but judging by the quotations I totally agree. There are big obstacles if you are born out of the "wrong" family, in the "wrong" part of the country. Of course you can overcome them, but you start at an disadvantage.

What could make a difference though is the relative difference between poverty in US and poverty in DK. I am pretty sure that you are better of as poor in Denmark than you are as poor in the US. We probably have a better safety-net. And in the other end of the spectrum I'm pretty sure that there is a smaller percentage of mega-rich in Danish terms even. So while I agree that there is still a problem in Denmark I don't think our problem is as big as the US.

My main point being that you can't just look at Denmark through this lens and say - Hey! They haven't solved it. And you also can't say that we have. As I see it, it is as always; a lot more complicated.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#240

Post by kagamine » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 8:07 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #214

patmcguire wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a lot of complicated signaling that says I Am Elite Like You. Hard to pick up on or transmit out if you're not in on it, and I don't think people in it are doing it consciously.

In the UK, accent is a major component.

I'm from a region of the UK that when people, especially abroad, hear me speak they ask why I don't sound as expected. They have been to where I am from or met other people from there and think I sound "posh". I'm not posh at all but grew up in the middle of nowhere and that's just the accent people there have. Posh is my friend Graham who pronounces his name as "grah-am". Graham's annual school fees where half the annual wage of the shop manager where I worked as a student.