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Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

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Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#221
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't have a safety net you'll quickly become risk averse.

One distinction that I like to make is that in my own life, I've definitely been poor, but I've never been in poverty. I've been a student and I've been unemployed almost without money to even get food occasionally, but I've always been in a position where I could ask my (middle-class) mother for a bit of cash to tide me over (or even move back 'home' for a while. I have never had to ask, but that option/safety net h…

I grew up poor, and after my first bout of college, I only had $400 to my name, nowhere to go, no job, and 28 days until rent was due. I spent that month freezing in an empty apartment eating potatoes with soy sauce on them. And then may landlord wants to play "this is a stupid college kid" and starts claiming that I must keep paying rent until I can find a new lessee (which I didn't.) Nevermind that I always payed my rent 3 months in advance.

These kinds of experiences really color your perspective on wealth. There's no reason for some well-off, undereducated, underworked adult to literally threaten the survival of another person simply because they're too lazy to do their own job for a business they owned.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#222
post #189

There is an old proverb my grandmother used to say: "My house is my castle, my cheap cotton silken, my wooden chair, made of gold". My take from that saying was that our current economics is all gold-backed economics, and that we express the value of something only in terms of how much we value gold. The moment you unlearn that gold is valuable, or has some innate intrinsic value is the moment you can replace gold wi…

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Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#224
post #202
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really is a strange, new thing to come from nothing and all of a sudden be able to go out to eat at an Applebee's without worrying about your finances for a month. This. I come from a background where ordering pizza was a special event. We weren't poor poor, but we had to be careful. I'm getting more used to eating out and getting takeout, but I still read the menu right-to-left (prices first) even though 99% of…

It's a weird feeling to walk out of a store with a bag full of stuff and realize you have no idea how much any of it cost. Whenever that happens I think of that minor scandal when the nation found out the Clintons(?) didn't know the price of a gallon of milk.

I see not having to know prices as one of the best perks of being decently well off. I've had to count every penny when I was younger, and look for cheaper alternatives, and defer purchases, and it made money one of the big stressful things in my life.

Eventually arning enough that I could stop thinking about it other than checking my balance now and again was far more liberating than any of the subsequent improvements in my finances.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#225
post #202
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really is a strange, new thing to come from nothing and all of a sudden be able to go out to eat at an Applebee's without worrying about your finances for a month. This. I come from a background where ordering pizza was a special event. We weren't poor poor, but we had to be careful. I'm getting more used to eating out and getting takeout, but I still read the menu right-to-left (prices first) even though 99% of…

It's a weird feeling to walk out of a store with a bag full of stuff and realize you have no idea how much any of it cost. Whenever that happens I think of that minor scandal when the nation found out the Clintons(?) didn't know the price of a gallon of milk.

No, no, no. Bill Clinton got the grocery prices correct when asked in 1992. There was folklore that George HW Bush didn't know how much milk cost, but that was not confirmed. See http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=89861 https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/110131351/

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hmmm but it doesn't look so bad when you consider that 67% of poor college grads are at least 50-percentile in wealth Where does it show that? The chart you linked to shows income quintiles, not wealth. I couldn't find it in the article either, but may have overlooked it. A wealth visualization would be quite appropriate here though, as a high income does not necessarily lead to retaining wealth. Some suggest that…

I think this is overlooking another potential factor: Rich culture is better than poor culture. A college dropout who has grown up rich is going to be more likely to value knowledge than a poor person, will have been exposed to more money management, and being rich is positively correlated with making good life decisions. Contrast that with poor culture, where we know that the inverse is true in many cases: Knowledge…

Rich culture is better than poor culture when you're rich. When you're poor the decision of the poor are often more rational.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone interested in digging into this concept, read up on "Impostor Syndrome". https://counseling.caltech.edu/general/InfoandResources/Impo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

There may be some interplay with Impostor Syndrome, but IMO what is being discussed here is a different thing, for which there may be a more specific name... but if so I'm unaware of it. Impostor syndrome is pretty much universal (insomuch as it crosses class/economy boundaries) whereas what has been mentioned here is a sort of anti-entitlement very specific to people who grew up poor. People in this situation are of…

It sounds a little like learned helplessness ... having spent some time in the UK I have noticed this unquestioning deference to "ones betters" and I wonder how it comes about. How is this trait acquired?

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#228
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't have a safety net you'll quickly become risk averse.

One distinction that I like to make is that in my own life, I've definitely been poor, but I've never been in poverty. I've been a student and I've been unemployed almost without money to even get food occasionally, but I've always been in a position where I could ask my (middle-class) mother for a bit of cash to tide me over (or even move back 'home' for a while. I have never had to ask, but that option/safety net h…

Reminds me of pulp's "common people" ... you could call your dad he could stop it all yeah

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen this before. Some people will only take a job if they KNOW how to do the job. Others will take a job, and are confident they can learn it along the way. It might have more to do with that confidence than being poor.

If you don't have a safety net you'll quickly become risk averse.

This is particular true if you have a mortgage and children to feed. For the sake of keeping the house and bringing food to the table, the majority of people will gladly accept less salary for greater job security.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#230

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

This really hits home for me. I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied: "Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity." And its really true. My first engineering jo…

This is a throw away account. I'm writing this because I'm the embodiment of poor and the embodiment of lack of social mobility.

As a child of divorce, I lived in affluent suburbia. However, everything was devoted to keeping the house and to food. There was next to nothing for anything else. I had three jobs going through high school. When I was in school I was told that I couldn't qualify for financial aid because of how much money my father made. His life was dedicated to revenge on my mother and he spent HUGE swaths of money to avoid paying $200/month in child support. Getting money from him for tuition or getting him to sign on the student loan forms was an impossibility. Ironically, I had none of the advantages of being poor.

Graduating average was going to be 96%. They kicked me out at the last minute almost. Truancy. I had the flu for a couple of days. Doctor's note required. The father trying to make my mother's life a living hell by yelling everyday at school administrators did not help either. Nothing in my life was stranger than having a school administrator that I had never previously interacted with tell me that they want to kick me out of the school simply to make life easier for themselves.

Finding employment in 'my field' had not been easy. Usually I worked at mind numbing non-WDS Windows 7 deployments for a one or two month stint. I have not been able to ever get work 'in my field' that paid over $20,000 USD per year. I've had employment where I was programming at minimum wage and the clients were billed $3000 USD per day for my work. Respectfully negotiating was of course fruitless in this situation. I've been in this sort of situation several times. The worst people seem to find me and take advantage. Usually, pay to billing factors are between 5-10.

I started to not want to interact with employers in person. I started making my living making making Android Apps for clients on RFQ sites until 2014. I was getting paid from $50 to $400 per app or app framework. One client took one project and now has over 100 million users across a dozen similar apps. I was hoping I could start to charge more but that never seemed to happen. The best thing that happened was that I had people halfway around the world constantly hounding me to work at what was essentially still minimum wage.

I am lucky because I took an early interest in Bitcoin. I'm willingly hiding in the lowest caste of society. I'm trying to work on myself. I'd like to be treated like a human being one day by an employer, when I am ready.

I'm not writing this to ask for help. I'm writing this to say that the stigma of being at the bottom is very very real. And while it, at least for me, has predominatly been an internal battle of asserting self-worth, there are definitely people who saw the precarious situation that I was in and use it for their advantage. Or to revel in being cruel.

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