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Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

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Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#201

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

>And while this was a sample of one it really opened my eyes to sense of entitlement that comes with growing up in a wealthy vs poor enviroment.

In the UK, the primary selling points of the Public School system (i.e. private schools priced far out of the reach of most of the population) are three things - social confidence, entitlement and a sense of superiority, and networking.

Conversely, the primary products of the state educational system are low confidence, low expectations, and exclusion from social capital.

It's a perfectly rigid and self-sustaining caste system. Of course a few individuals break out of it, but the social and economic effect is deadening.

Although wealth and opportunity aren't fairly distributed, there's a more subtly destructive effect on the rich. I've known people who grew up with huge privilege, and some of them have been very successful, because all that education and opportunity allowed them to explore and develop their talents.

But I've known others who have been crushed by their backgrounds. They can appear successful outwardly, but in fact they've never developed an independent sense of themselves outside of their families and their wealth.

This usually happens in families that are externally wealthy but emotionally austere or even neglectful. It's a particularly toxic combination socially because these people can end up having wealth, influence, and power, but their emotions and humanity are stunted and crippled.

Wealth inequalities can cover up these deeper issues of neglect and sometimes outright abuse. And if these people become politically influential, they tend to repeat their abuse on a much wider and more destructive scale.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#202
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really hits home for me. I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied: "Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity." And its really true. My first engineering jo…

> It really is a strange, new thing to come from nothing and all of a sudden be able to go out to eat at an Applebee's without worrying about your finances for a month. This. I come from a background where ordering pizza was a special event. We weren't poor poor, but we had to be careful. I'm getting more used to eating out and getting takeout, but I still read the menu right-to-left (prices first) even though 99% of…

It's a weird feeling to walk out of a store with a bag full of stuff and realize you have no idea how much any of it cost. Whenever that happens I think of that minor scandal when the nation found out the Clintons(?) didn't know the price of a gallon of milk.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#203

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

I have seen this before. Some people will only take a job if they KNOW how to do the job. Others will take a job, and are confident they can learn it along the way. It might have more to do with that confidence than being poor.

If you don't have a safety net you'll quickly become risk averse.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#205
Back a couple of decades ago in India. I was working for an American telecoms co. I grew pally with an HR manager. He showed me the background on a new hire. The new hire was the son of a mid-level government official cum career civil servant in a dept that oversaw the telecoms industry.

I saw the letter Daddy wrote ON HIS OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT LETTERHEAD... addressed to the head of the Indian division of the telcoms co... recommending his own son for a job.

My point? It's not just rich kids. It's also well connected kids. In high-regulation environments, government officials, although they may not be rich, have the highest access.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#206

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

>And while this was a sample of one it really opened my eyes to sense of entitlement that comes with growing up in a wealthy vs poor enviroment. In the UK, the primary selling points of the Public School system (i.e. private schools priced far out of the reach of most of the population) are three things - social confidence, entitlement and a sense of superiority, and networking. Conversely, the primary products of th…

There's also a lot of complicated signaling that says I Am Elite Like You. Hard to pick up on or transmit out if you're not in on it, and I don't think people in it are doing it consciously.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#207

Why should a meritocracy be individual based instead of family based? I personally think it's okay for families to give their inheritance/assistance to their children even if the children don't "deserve" it. etc. Working towards bettering your children lives is a reason many of us get up in the morning.

That is what I often wonder on the larger discussion of "privlege". What draws the line between your parents or grandparents having worked for a better life for you and having some sort of shameful "privelege"? I understand that there is a difference when it comes down to historical oppressions of entire categories of people, but I feel that many people often confuse that and "rich parents vs. poor parents", seeking to remedy some percieved unjust inequality where the inequality comes from earlier sacrifices leading to more positive outcomes.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#208

Why should a meritocracy be individual based instead of family based? I personally think it's okay for families to give their inheritance/assistance to their children even if the children don't "deserve" it. etc. Working towards bettering your children lives is a reason many of us get up in the morning.

> Working towards bettering your children lives is a reason many of us get up in the morning.

Absolutely! it's just that when someone has a lot of success because their family helped them, they are successful because of that help. It's not a "meritocracy". The same reasoning can be used to invalidate the claim that there is a "meritocracy" of families. If you claim "family X has more merit than family Y", well you can apply the same reasoning to show that just like person A got their privilege from family X, family X got their privilege from situation Q (not from an impoverished country, not from a persecuted ethnic or racial community, not ravaged by war or genocide, not enslaved, etc. etc.).

Some of the comments here seem upset that the author is trying to link a correlation to a causation. That's not the case; the premise of the article is about the lack of a cause of something; e.g. that someone who is extremely successful cannot claim that such success is obviously due to merit. If anyone is to be accused of premature "correlation == causation" it would be those who claim that merit is the leading factor in one's success.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen this before. Some people will only take a job if they KNOW how to do the job. Others will take a job, and are confident they can learn it along the way. It might have more to do with that confidence than being poor.

If you don't have a safety net you'll quickly become risk averse.

One distinction that I like to make is that in my own life, I've definitely been poor, but I've never been in poverty. I've been a student and I've been unemployed almost without money to even get food occasionally, but I've always been in a position where I could ask my (middle-class) mother for a bit of cash to tide me over (or even move back 'home' for a while.

I have never had to ask, but that option/safety net has always been there. That, to me, is the difference between merely being poor (a transient state) and living in poverty (no simple escape route).

Hell, even simply knowing that you can escape poverty is an advantage that some people don't have.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#210
post #163

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

I was just getting ready to make a reply along the lines of who cares what outcomes for rich kids are as long as there is opportunity for non rich kids. That is to say, who cares if little Richie Ritch will succeed 100% of the time because of his wealth, as long as your average poor can succeed provided they put in the work (i.e., isn't denied opportunity). Your comment took a way different direction than I was expec…

I grew up privileged -- and in most decades, fairly rich. But I definately feel guilty about expensing things. I think that's just because my personality is pretty diffident.

Though, as I started earning money myself and not living off my family, I became more open to enjoying the perks that are offered me.

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