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Why you should never use Upwork

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Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#211

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway7312 wrote: post #141
almata wrote: post #69

From the Upwork FAQ: "You'll need to download and use the Upwork Team App—this tool includes the Work Diary, which ensures you are guaranteed payment. By taking work-in-progress screenshots every 10 minutes, it provides proof to your clients that you are hard at work." Screenshots every 10 minutes? You mean... screenshots of MY SCREEN every 10 minutes? That was what made me close their website and totally forget it u…

As a long-time UpWork user, this has saved our butts a few times, especially with technical hires. We've had times we had hires billing full work weeks but seemed not to be getting much done. But how do you know if it really ought to take 10 hours or 40 hours to complete a task? I've done enough research, writing, and coding myself to know sometimes the thing you think will take 10 minutes ends up taking 2 days inste…

[deleted]

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#212

Post by Whachadoo »

utefan001 wrote: post #152
throwaway7312 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a long-time UpWork user, this has saved our butts a few times, especially with technical hires. We've had times we had hires billing full work weeks but seemed not to be getting much done. But how do you know if it really ought to take 10 hours or 40 hours to complete a task? I've done enough research, writing, and coding myself to know sometimes the thing you think will take 10 minutes ends up taking 2 days inste…

Upwork is far from perfect, but if you apply some rules of common sense and also have decade+ of tech experience, it can be useful. I always allow manual time, but restrict the hours to 5 or 10 per week. If the hire does not meet my expectations, I move on and accept the lost money as a learning experience. I don't give a negative review, I know that I won't rehire, but I don't think I know the person well enough to…

> There are some great people on upwork. The best advice is to be really nice to your hires and if possible, have interesting work for them to do. Nobody wants to freelance for a jerk.

I'd hope I'm one of them (albeit my profile's disabled to use another site now).

Coming from the other perspective it's really difficult to actually wade through the hundreds of "gotcha" clients that are just horrendous to work for, if you even get to the stage where you're working for them!

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#213

Post by Whachadoo »

cygned wrote: post #85
almata wrote: post #69

From the Upwork FAQ: "You'll need to download and use the Upwork Team App—this tool includes the Work Diary, which ensures you are guaranteed payment. By taking work-in-progress screenshots every 10 minutes, it provides proof to your clients that you are hard at work." Screenshots every 10 minutes? You mean... screenshots of MY SCREEN every 10 minutes? That was what made me close their website and totally forget it u…

This. Not only that this approach does not really fit remote development work, you are basically forced to install spyware on your machine. What a crazy idea.

It has pluses and minuses.

I moved from Freelancer to Upwork and my initial thoughts were that the freelancers (and thus clients) on Upwork were better because of the tracking software that basically guaranteed your worker was doing what was necessary.

But in hindsight the clients are basically just as bad and the tracking software just makes remote workers feel spied on and untrusted.

I've moved on now and have repeat clients as well as Toptal where there's mutual trust involved. (Toptal: https://www.toptal.com/#employ-only-on-the-ball-software-fre...)

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#214

Post by Whachadoo »

cobby wrote: post #197
Mithaldu wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a fairly noticable popup, that you can also configure to make a sound; and if you're really worried you can review the screenshots in your work diary at the end of the day.

As far as I know all screenshots are available for clients right away.

I believe it gives you something like 10 seconds to click "delete" before it uploads it, but even then you can click the screenshot from the Upwork client and it'll take you to the work schedule where you can then delete it (removing the time worked / money paid for those 10 minutes).

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#215

Post by anovikov »

znpy wrote: post #180
webtechgal wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncalled for threats from clients to give you a bad review or try to suspend your account. This. Totally. Several times, at 3/3 platforms where I've been working (for over two years now). Surprisingly (not), they (the clients) can do this and get away with it any time, but I (the freelancer) can't.

You know... Who has the money? Who has Upwork to please? The client. So what is your role in Upwork? Let me tell you what I have realised... Do you pay to use Upwork? Not directly (you're not the one fueling the whole thing). Are you paid to use Upwork? No, because the money you get is a counterpart for the work you perform. So... What is the your role in Upwork? Well, you're the product being sold. In any case you w…

It depends on what sort of freelancer you are. What is your standing with it. If you are a platinum or higher contractor with $500K+ of money earned and 10K hours in your history, you can get away with a lot of things, and support is very nice to you. If some casual client tries to threaten you, you just send the screenshot to them and client simply gets banned (and there is a provision for that in their ToS, called blackmail by a customer).

Really, Upwork will block you only if you have provably scammed your client, or engaged in criminal activity like hacking - they obviously don't want to get into legal fights so they have zero tolerance policy against that, or if they have good reasons to suspect that you drive your clients off the platform, which is also explainable (and after recent reduction of commissions, that is also very stupid to do).

Re: reduction of commissions: obviously you don't try to circumvent Upwork with a new client, because you don't trust him yet and need payment protection which Upwork provides. When you know the client though, you are already past the $10K point earnings with him and your commission lowers to 5%. You don't want to get into trouble and risk losing your primary sales channel over 5%. 'Increasing their cut, like a lot' is a NONSENSE. 20% applies to first $500 only, so it is max $50 increase of commission per client. Is that such a significant figure? That also drew out a lot of spammers. If my sales funnel got widened by 10% (and it definitely did), i'd happily shell out $50 for that. It is optimal if client acquisition cost is over $500 - and in programming, if you can scalably attract clients for $500 a pop you are going to get really rich, quickly. I'd happily pay $1000 a pop to get clients like my average client, if you can get me a couple of those per week.

I thought of and actually suggested Upwork to remove any free contacts per month, so project bid is always paid (even if cheap). For the same reason: it will drive off spammers and simplify sales, and improve client image of the platform (being a customer myself a little, it gets frustrating how much spam you get)

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#216

Post by oarsinsync »

brian-armstrong wrote: post #158
Mithaldu wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand why some would not like this, and maybe it's because i'm german, but i do not mind this at all. Here's why: If i'm employed in an office and working at my work pc, not only is the machine often administrated by the company i am doing work for, and thus may have additional software in there, even if it's as simple as a VNC server. It is also on their premises and the screen plainly visible to cameras…

What if you accidentally revealed a private key on the screen during the screenshot? Are you willing to forfeit 10 minutes of time to keep your SSH or whatever else uncompromised? Or are you going to trust Upwork and your client to not somehow leak it, even accidentally?

> What if you accidentally revealed a private key on the screen during the screenshot?

You replace the private key with a new one that hasn't been compromised.

> Are you willing to forfeit 10 minutes of time to keep your SSH or whatever else uncompromised?

Too late, it already is.

> Or are you going to trust Upwork and your client to not somehow leak it, even accidentally?

See above. You've already leaked it, it is now compromised and needs replacing. It sucks, but if you adopt a different approach, you're risking a lot of trouble down the road. Private keys are private. The moment you leak it, accidentally or otherwise, it's no longer private and should be replaced.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#218

Post by ilaksh »

throwaway7312 wrote: post #128

From the employer side. We're a platinum employer on UpWork with probably close to $100,000 spent on the platform and maybe 70 completed jobs. Tons of reviews calling us one of the best employers on UpWork. Right after oDesk merged with eLance to form UpWork, the platform rolled out its new "job success" score and sidelined star ratings (which was how it'd previously determined employer and contractor quality). We ty…

> "Okay! Job 5-starred and marked 'successful'!" in hopes they'll be inclined to do the same. It's not about accurate information. It's about not losing access to the platform

This reminds me of my experience with Uber and pretty much every 5-star system I have used (which includes Uber and UpWork and not much else).

Also reminds me of the recent Black Mirror season 3 episode 1 "Nosedive" where nearly every personal or professional interaction generates a rating.

But anyway, the basic concept of systems where you are rating someone between 1 and 5 stars seems to not work, because for whatever reason(s) (structural to this type of system) it tends towards giving everyone a 5 unless you are just new and don't understand the 'real' ratings or giving them a 4 when they did a poor job. A 3 is pretty much a vote to remove someone from the system.

Uber drivers have told me (if I remember correctly) that if they get down to something like a 4.6 they get a warning or something and if they can't raise it they may be removed.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#219

Post by erikb »

The goal here should be to sue, not just making things public. Why don't you get a lawyer the moment your account won't be reopened? Upwork owes you over $1000. A client is seriously trying to harm your public image, which may result in losing customers/business. Both points themselves would be enough to talk to a lawyer. Together they are clear suing material.

If you go public you actually open yourself up to get sued. Also cheaters and bullies will see that you didn't sue and therefore see you as an easy mark. Normal schoolyard logics apply, just that as a grownup you don't hit them in the face but sue.

(I'm not a lawyer)

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#220

Post by rmc »

brian-armstrong wrote: post #158
Mithaldu wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand why some would not like this, and maybe it's because i'm german, but i do not mind this at all. Here's why: If i'm employed in an office and working at my work pc, not only is the machine often administrated by the company i am doing work for, and thus may have additional software in there, even if it's as simple as a VNC server. It is also on their premises and the screen plainly visible to cameras…

What if you accidentally revealed a private key on the screen during the screenshot? Are you willing to forfeit 10 minutes of time to keep your SSH or whatever else uncompromised? Or are you going to trust Upwork and your client to not somehow leak it, even accidentally?

Or what if you view personal information? Under data protection law, would that could as a data breech?
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