HN comments are underrated • Hacker News Board

Re: HN comments are underrated

#171

Post by veddox » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

internaut wrote: post #56

It's not complicated, just hard to digest. Anti-white racism. It's identical to the antisemitism of the far right in the 30s and 40s, except it is with whites.

> Anti-white racism. It's identical to the antisemitism of the far right in the 30s and 40s, except it is with whites.

Wow, I officially have a new "worst-comment-seen-on-HN". Sir, have you ever experienced anything close to racism? And do you have any idea what antisemitism in the 30s and 40s actually was like?

I am a young white male who has spent several years living abroad in the Third World. And yes, I have experienced some measure of "anti-white racism". That is to say, I am used to being publicly jeered at, being blamed for the poverty of the country I lived in (not entirely without reason - countries inhabited mainly by whites have caused many, many problems for the developing world), being ripped off and having to live with the danger of being physically attacked. All because my skin was another colour.

But you know what? I am also a German, and when I walk through the streets of my home town I often walk past "stumbling stones" - small brass cobbles set into the ground to commemorate a Jewish family who once lived in that house beside the road. The names on these cobbles once belonged to real people, people I might have been friends with if I had ever known them, and what they suffer does not in any way compare to what I have experienced. They were not just jeered at and ripped off on the market. They were excluded from society in a way I never was. They were branded as subhumans, they had their property confiscated, they were attacked and humiliated. And then they were herded up like cattle and sent off to be killed in one of the most brutal, most efficient killing industries ever invented by man.

I love my second home country, for despite the "racism" that I have experienced there (and you get used to it) I have also found true friends there and so much more that is incredibly positive - I am proud of this country and its achievements. They also loved their country; many of them even fought in a war for it. But their country thanked them by ostracizing them, and then putting them to death.

So please, the next time when you want to compare something to the antisemitism of the 30s and 40s, think again before you post. Nothing in this world is identical to that. Very, very few things come close. Anti-white racism is related, but please put it into its proper perspective. Failure to do so untruthfully exaggerates one issue and is grossly disrespectful to the victims of what remains one of the greatest disasters of mankind.

Re: HN comments are underrated

#172

Post by hiou » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #142

nabla9 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

".. the measure of a healthy organization is probably the degree to which negative thoughts are allowed. In places where great work is being done, the attitude always seems to be critical and sarcastic, not "positive" and "supportive". The people I know who do great work think that they suck, but that everyone else sucks even more." -- Paul Graham

The first bit is true, but the second is pretty much the opposite of what Google found: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/what-google-learn... In particular, Google found that psychological safety is a key component of successful teams. Indeed, I think in an environment where rudeness is the norm, it's much harder to get people to share negative thoughts. Sure, you'll have a few alpha-dicks who will say what…

Nope. Seen both many times. The positive enforcement causes no one to share any negative thoughts after a while and the company smiles it's way out of business.

Unfortunately people who will not speak up out of fear are toxic to company culture. The creative process is immediately destroyed when people need to second guess everything they say or do since it is impossible to know if you are about to say the wrong thing.

If someone can not tolerate cynical and sarcastic comments they need to be removed quickly. This is very different from mean spirited put downs and intentionally hurtful comments.

Stuff like "idk that button looks like it was mad in 2002" or "I swear we have the shittiest parser ever right here". Is good and fine.

"You talk to much", "why did you write it like that? It doesn't make any sense" Are bad.

Notice how the first like says "we" or talks about a specific feature and the others talk about specific people.

Re: HN comments are underrated

#173

Post by tunap » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #64

criddell wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if we had the vote counts, we could test your conjecture.

We have them in other forums -- e.g. Reddit if I am not mistaken. Do they work that well there, or do they make the forums a competition for points and popular comments, in other words a popularity contest?

WEB 2.0 turned online discussions into popularity contests. Period. I preferred the older, smaller communities sans likes & upvotes where you knew most in the community and had the ability to 'ignore' MUs. Of course, that had it's drawbacks and is much more difficult to scale as the site gains popularity & evolves. I do not have the answer other than self-moderation, yet, most(including myself) fail sometimes in the heat of emotional impulse... and personal investments, paid actors, other reasons.

Re: HN comments are underrated

#174

Post by GrinningFool » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

hellofunk wrote: post #74

> comments are often gratuitously mean, and people will often defend gratuitously mean comments by claiming that it’s either impossible or inefficient to convey information without being mean. > Most of the negative things you hear about HN comments are true. I think it is interesting how the relatively anonymised nature of the internet has a similar effect on people of all stripes. HN readers, I believe, are among t…

I've found my negative tendencies curbed quickly when I started using my real name, or accounts directly linked to my real name (such as this one). For me, it just forces an extra second of thought - whatever I type next affects people's perception of me as a person.

At first this was just in the form of considering my reply more, but over time it shifted to occurring as a part of reaching my initial conclusions.

Re: HN comments are underrated

#175

Post by eximius » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #107

zazen wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may very well be true in organizations where the sarcasm exists in an established context of mutual respect (or at least, the knowledge that you'll have to keep working with the other person). But it's very different when total strangers communicate by text over the internet: sarcastic comments breed aggressive replies, and threads degenerate into arguments very rapidly. I think good conversations online need mo…

I have noticed in HN that well justified critical comments without hostile tone are faced with aggressive tone if the subject is some new hot technology. The underdone seems to be "say positive things", not say intelligent or insightful things.

I've noticed that too. However, since any criticisms I might have usually do not entirely detract from the... whatever, you can just preface it with something positive. "This is great! But, I wonder about X..."

You get your criticism, they get their happy feelings.

Re: HN comments are underrated

#176

Post by GrinningFool » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

veddox wrote: post #154

yanjuk wrote: post #91

A way to reduce disruptive comments might be to make one downvote cost one karma point. Down-voting should be for disruption, not ignorance. Ignorant comments are fine. Get them out there so they can be aired and corrected. Laymen get to know what they think. Experts get to know what laymen think. Occasionally there's a good idea. Talk is cheap and we should do more of it. The alternative is people being far more ign…

> A way to reduce disruptive comments might be to make one downvote cost one karma point. That is such a good idea it has actually been integral to HN for, oh, I don't know, a pretty long time... From the FAQ ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html ): ''' How is a user's karma calculated? Roughly, the number of upvotes on their stories and comments minus the number of downvotes. The numbers don't match up exactly…

I think the downvotes referred to here is the number received, not given.

Re: HN comments are underrated

#177

Post by zzzcpan » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #142

nabla9 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

".. the measure of a healthy organization is probably the degree to which negative thoughts are allowed. In places where great work is being done, the attitude always seems to be critical and sarcastic, not "positive" and "supportive". The people I know who do great work think that they suck, but that everyone else sucks even more." -- Paul Graham

The first bit is true, but the second is pretty much the opposite of what Google found: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/what-google-learn... In particular, Google found that psychological safety is a key component of successful teams. Indeed, I think in an environment where rudeness is the norm, it's much harder to get people to share negative thoughts. Sure, you'll have a few alpha-dicks who will say what…

> you need positive, supportive environments

Google's research doesn't conclude that at all. Safe place to speak up is not necessarily a positive, supportive environment.

Re: HN comments are underrated

#178

Post by xenadu02 » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

hiou wrote: post #172

wpietri wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first bit is true, but the second is pretty much the opposite of what Google found: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/what-google-learn... In particular, Google found that psychological safety is a key component of successful teams. Indeed, I think in an environment where rudeness is the norm, it's much harder to get people to share negative thoughts. Sure, you'll have a few alpha-dicks who will say what…

Nope. Seen both many times. The positive enforcement causes no one to share any negative thoughts after a while and the company smiles it's way out of business. Unfortunately people who will not speak up out of fear are toxic to company culture. The creative process is immediately destroyed when people need to second guess everything they say or do since it is impossible to know if you are about to say the wrong thin…

First your anecdotes are not persuasive compared to two incredibly successful companies and one incredibly successful industry.

Second, you missed the point. It isn't about prohibiting anyone from expressing a negative opinion or sugar-coating things. That's a false dichotomy. It's about not attacking the messenger and not looking to place blame. It also means accepting valid criticism. You can be 100% honest without being an asshole.

Why do so many people (especially in tech) try to link "being a raging asshole" with telling the truth? The two are unrelated.

Re: HN comments are underrated

#179

Post by jschwartzi » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:16 PM UTC

tgb wrote: post #97

anton_tarasenko wrote: post #11

When I worked with the HN post data, I noticed that some years ago HN users had correctly predicted the "Show HN" projects that later got funding. Those projects had more upvotes. The more recent data has no such connection. It seems that the influx of users reduced the quality of judgement. So one way to improve HN submissions and comments is to weight points by the user's tenure on HN. I also suspect that early com…

Interesting, but when I upvote Shown HN posts, it's because it contributed to my enjoyment of reading HN. That's largely orthogonal to whether it would be a good product, and often times is directly contradictory towards it (fun tech demos -> upvotes, products -> meh). I don't think that's a decline in the quality of HN, it's just a different focus. I use HN as entertainment rather than as a prediction market. But I…

Yes. And the analysis could be improved by coding each submission according to its intended status as a cool toy or a side project. I bet that as HN has grown we're seeing more toys and less startup projects on Show HN.

Re: HN comments are underrated

#180

Post by pjc50 » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:22 PM UTC

anexprogrammer wrote: post #3

HN comments are full of naive political opinion, groupthink, and a tendency to blind optimism on all things technology or new. Often older ways have merit too. It's also probably the only place left on the net where, from comments, I'll find out rapidly, and bluntly with citations, when I'm wrong (and, yes I'm often wrong on the Internet!), usually learn something new on the topic, and sometimes talk with the guy who…

I keep meaning to scrape my comments over the years, collate the most upvoted ones, then publish in a blog/ebook somewhere with a bit of commentary on what it appears that HN "likes". The API doesn't quite facilitate this, unlike most sites which will just let you sort your comments by votes.

On HN politics, while the comments often have a substantial presence of doctrinaire libertarians, I feel that the voters skew much more liberal/social democrat. Unless there's a bout of "anti-SJW" downvoting and flagging on e.g. "discrimination in tech" stories.

(Provisional title "Silicon Valley on ten upvotes a day")