Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences • Hacker News Board

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#11

Post by sigstoat » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:08 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #8

It would be nice if we had either public driving simulators or classes that you could use to improve your driving and response to erratic other drivers. I suspect that the lack of this deliberate training is one reason why driving is much more dangerous than flying. Back when I owned a car, it seemed like all of the classes on driving marketed themselves as either: 1) A totally unchallenging formality that will satis…

Bridgestone's Winter Driving School comes to mind immediately, http://winterdrive.com/

Fundamentally, I think most drivers view driving as just a thing they do, and give no thought to the possibility of improving. So having classes or simulators isn't going to help, because they wouldn't take advantage of them.

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#12

Post by tobych » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #3

Simulators are not the problem for renewal, they get increasingly better with time. The problem is relying on automation instead of real piloting skills I trust much more a pilot practicing manual flying in a simulator than doing real flying in "Children of Magenta" mode

For those like me who, though not a pilot, enjoy watching Aircrash Investigation and similar programs, and finds the investigations and findings inspiring/sobering/educational as a software engineer, and like me weren't aware of the "Children of [the] Magenta" phrase, this article and audio piece [1] looks a good place to start. The phrase was used in a 1997 presentation - available publicly [2] - by American Airlines captain Warren Van Der Burgh, who said that (quoting the article's summary of his words): "The industry has turned pilots into “Children of the Magenta” who are too dependent on the guiding magenta-colored lines on their screens." He makes his case with some very funny lines, too. Quite the humorist: "I got stuff to worry about, don't I. Heads up stuff. It's probably not a good time to be typing." [3] immediately precedes his explanation of the phrase.

[1] http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/children-of-the-magent...

[2] https://youtu.be/pN41LvuSz10

[3] https://youtu.be/pN41LvuSz10?t=510

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#13

Post by drittich » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #3

Simulators are not the problem for renewal, they get increasingly better with time. The problem is relying on automation instead of real piloting skills I trust much more a pilot practicing manual flying in a simulator than doing real flying in "Children of Magenta" mode

Isn't this a false dichotomy, e.g., shouldn't it be "The problem is relying on automation in addition to real piloting skills"?

Look at the space program, for example. Extremes of forces and very short windows for decision-making have moved spaceflight in the direction of automation for most mission critical moments. The data that feeds in-flight automation is the same that feeds simulators, so I am not sure where the difference lies in your differentiation between the two.

I can see a point where doing everything by software rather than human is safer and makes the most sense (see the direction Tesla is taking us), and at that point there will be no issue. But that is not the case now.

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#14

Post by cm2187 » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

I was under the impression that 95% of the time, the pilot sits in the cockpit doing nothing, other that watching the autopilot by a clear sunny day. Whereas in a simulator the pilot is busy practicing challenging environments.

I am not qualified to have an opinion on whether a pilot can do simulators only but intuitively, an hour of simulator seems to be worth more than one hour of real life flight.

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#15

Post by ghaff » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:16 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #8

It would be nice if we had either public driving simulators or classes that you could use to improve your driving and response to erratic other drivers. I suspect that the lack of this deliberate training is one reason why driving is much more dangerous than flying. Back when I owned a car, it seemed like all of the classes on driving marketed themselves as either: 1) A totally unchallenging formality that will satis…

There are advanced driving classes that people take but they're not really aimed at being a "safer city driver." Example: https://bmwperformancecenter.com/school/bmw

The thing is that it's not so much that most people don't know how they could drive more defensively/safer/etc., it's that they're in a hurry, or they're texting, or otherwise aren't carefully monitoring their surroundings.

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#16

Post by drittich » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:16 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #14

I was under the impression that 95% of the time, the pilot sits in the cockpit doing nothing, other that watching the autopilot by a clear sunny day. Whereas in a simulator the pilot is busy practicing challenging environments. I am not qualified to have an opinion on whether a pilot can do simulators only but intuitively, an hour of simulator seems to be worth more than one hour of real life flight.

Sure, they are both valuable, and simulators will let you practice things you never want to happen in real life, so you can be prepared. The issue is that simulators are being treated as if they can completely substitute for real flying experience. E.g., the mere fact that you may be bored most of the time in a long flight can affect how you perform during the 5% where you really need to be present.

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#17

Post by raverbashing » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:20 PM UTC

drittich wrote: post #13

raverbashing wrote: post #3

Simulators are not the problem for renewal, they get increasingly better with time. The problem is relying on automation instead of real piloting skills I trust much more a pilot practicing manual flying in a simulator than doing real flying in "Children of Magenta" mode

Isn't this a false dichotomy, e.g., shouldn't it be "The problem is relying on automation in addition to real piloting skills"? Look at the space program, for example. Extremes of forces and very short windows for decision-making have moved spaceflight in the direction of automation for most mission critical moments. The data that feeds in-flight automation is the same that feeds simulators, so I am not sure where th…

I don't see your point

> The data that feeds in-flight automation is the same that feeds simulators

The problem is when the data sources fail, like in AF447.

Or when you have people crashing an airplane in perfect weather, like Asiana Airlines 214 in San Francisco

Yes, automation makes things easier, but they fail eventually. And when it fails you have to fly it manually (or with a lower level of automation). But some modern pilots are incapable of doing that.

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#18

Post by adamfeldman » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:21 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #14

I was under the impression that 95% of the time, the pilot sits in the cockpit doing nothing, other that watching the autopilot by a clear sunny day. Whereas in a simulator the pilot is busy practicing challenging environments. I am not qualified to have an opinion on whether a pilot can do simulators only but intuitively, an hour of simulator seems to be worth more than one hour of real life flight.

American B2 bomber pilots practice 14+ hour long-endurance missions in simulators before they're ever allowed near a real ($2B+) aircraft

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#19

Post by drittich » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:22 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #8

It would be nice if we had either public driving simulators or classes that you could use to improve your driving and response to erratic other drivers. I suspect that the lack of this deliberate training is one reason why driving is much more dangerous than flying. Back when I owned a car, it seemed like all of the classes on driving marketed themselves as either: 1) A totally unchallenging formality that will satis…

That is an amazing idea. I would love it if people were required to spend time in driving simulators practicing spin recovery, emergency braking, etc. This is totally doable and could have a huge impact on accident statistics. It's also a much better way to validate drivers' reaction times and decision-making ability as they age.

Re: Canadian pilots no longer have to fly real aircraft to keep valid licences

#20

Post by ghaff » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:23 PM UTC

tobych wrote: post #12

raverbashing wrote: post #3

Simulators are not the problem for renewal, they get increasingly better with time. The problem is relying on automation instead of real piloting skills I trust much more a pilot practicing manual flying in a simulator than doing real flying in "Children of Magenta" mode

For those like me who, though not a pilot, enjoy watching Aircrash Investigation and similar programs, and finds the investigations and findings inspiring/sobering/educational as a software engineer, and like me weren't aware of the "Children of [the] Magenta" phrase, this article and audio piece [1] looks a good place to start. The phrase was used in a 1997 presentation - available publicly [2] - by American Airline…

It's an area of ongoing research as well, e.g. the Humans and Autonomy Lab at Duke. (Missy Cummings, who is the director of the lab, used to be a Navy fighter pilot.)

I expect we'll hear a lot more on this topic. Assuming you're at all skeptical about the timeframe for full automobile driving automation, it seems a certainty that we'll have a (significant) period when stuff works most of the time--until it doesn't. And, given that lots of people drive distracted today, what's it going to look like when the car can drive down the highway most of the time on its own?