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China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#131

Post by eveningcoffee »

dealiaro wrote: post #128

This is kind of interesting, in a "history of communism" type of way. There’s been a sense that communism as a goal in China has been in zombie mode for a while with the system continuing temporarily until an economic crisis or somesuch brings it to an end. This reminds me of the various “rationalisation” initiatives undertaken by state communism(s) in their early days which formed such a big part of what we think of…

Zombie mode communism has been already tried right in the beginning by New Economic Policy in Soviet Union between 1922 and 1928 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy

The end was one of the bloodiest crimes against humanity and one of the most widespread genocides of the previous century.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#132

Post by PaulRobinson »

aub3bhat wrote: post #2

I just finished watching the Nosedive (Season 3, episode 1) from Black Mirror on Netflix, it shows a similar system. Unlike other Black Mirror episodes its quite well balanced. I would highly highly recommend watching it.

I watched the first 3 episodes of S3 last night, and as soon as I saw the headline for this story, I thought of Nosedive.

Watching Nosedive, I thought how close to it we were already, it's just that we're measuring people in terms of Followers or Likes. This path started I think when we prioritised Google Analytics numbers over the positive effects you create within your audience: clicks, traffic, unique visitors all seem to count more in 2016 than loyalty and shared values that dominated publishing for the prior 100 years or more.

In the age of "personal brand" it makes sense to me that we're going to end up with "personal metrics" and we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

At the end of Nosedive I decided if that was the future of my society, I'd stay being me and suffer the consequences. I'd rather be happy in my own skin that be popular, and if I lived in a society that turned popularity into a measure of personal worth, I'd quite happy to be a dissident within it.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#133

Post by island_builder »

China's current credit system is basically non-existence. I just got here in the states and feel like I can't do anything without credit history, even for open a debit card, which is like crazy, while in China, at least for now, nobody really cares, I never have once need to deal with credit.

Maybe this person is true about GOV of CHINA's LONG TERM plan, or ambition, but to be honest, United States is a lot more closer to that.

The thing here is, you get to predict how horrible the future might be, and I don't get to refute, because it's never there yet. So I hope you guys think twice before commenting, not that it's bad thing to think long, but not really useful for making an argument.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#135

Post by berntb »

zby wrote: post #123
truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

I think the difference is in the secrecy. In the US, at least in principle, the system is not secret - in China secrecy is the rule - the party is not supposed to be judged from outside.

I think the main difference is that you will still get most jobs in the west, even if you have the "wrong" opinions. Like reading Chomsky's collected works in the US. (Or follow Islamist web sites in, well, any country.)

I.e., it is mainly for commercial/security reasons in the Western world, not for political control of the population.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#136

Post by daemonk »

Playing devil's advocate here. Is the outrage towards this kind of system essentially a criticism of the technology? Specifically, can we guarantee that the system would be secure and can we guarantee that the system is accurate (objective) and not subject to human manipulation?

If we hypothetically assume that the system is hacker-proof enough and accurate enough for all practical purposes, is there still an underlying moral reason not to implement this system? I instinctively feel that it is wrong, but I just don't know what it is.

I think we all unconsciously rate people in our social interactions. Maybe to explicitly quantitate that rating solidifies it and makes social mobility harder? Our fuziness in our unconscious rating of people gives leeway for others chances to redeem themselves or not? Whereas in a system like this, people are more likely to be stuck where they are?

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#137

Post by island_builder »

woodruffw wrote: post #83
truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

As far as I know, none of the agencies you mentioned have individual numerical scores for 330M+ Americans and US residents. The closest thing is credit scores (which the article mentions), which are metered and tracked by private companies under a broad set of federal regulations. More to the point, your potential employers don't get access to your personal life, beyond what you divulge to them and whatever informati…

What's really the difference if big companies have access to your credit score. and "none of the agencies you mentioned have individual numerical scores for 330M+ Americans and US residents" yet none of the agencies in China have, even if there is something, it's a plan. it's pointless the discuss how terrible the system might be in the FUTURE of China and compare that to what is it NOW in the US

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#138

Post by throw2016 »

I think the moral highground to judge surveillance and human rights issues has been lost. Pre snowden this kind of thing would cause mass hysteria, massive moral grandstanding and call for sanctions in western populations and media.

Now chastened its more of legalese and tiny triumps based on hope rather than scrutiny.

Just as well the sordid culture of using human rights to score moral points and signal cultural superiority is done and the remaining vestiges of apologism and denial should think seriously about self examination and scrutiny lest the ground shifts even further under their feet.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#139

Post by powerapple »

It is already in place. If you owe someone some money and you don't want to pay. He can sue you in court, and what the court does is that before you pay back whatever you owe, you cannot buy flight tickets, cannot take high-speech train, cannot stay in good hotels (basically any where you need to show your ID). agencies cannot book you holidays abroad and so on.
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