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A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

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Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#111
I'm going to use this as an opportunity to yet again rail against the idea of indexing. It's a good thing in theory, but like most things, when it's taken to extremes, it's horrible.

Passive investments wherein the investor takes zero interest in these investments are and have always been a terrible idea, and nothing in modern history has facilitated this more than index funds. When you give a friend of a friend $10,000 to start a company, do you just hand it over no questions asked and with no follow-up? Or do you try to get engaged with your investment? Make sure the CEO isn't sitting on his ass collecting a paycheck? Scrutinize it for potential frauds?

Well, that's what you do in an index fund. Except it's not even a friend of a friend that you're trusting. It's some group of people who likely live thousands of miles away who may or may not have an opiate or alcohol addiction or are complete sociopaths or are just regular humans who know how to legally take advantage of you when you aren't paying attention.

You want to know why CEO pay is so high? It's because CEOs have no accountability for raising their pay when investors aren't paying attention to what they're doing. You want to know why CEOs are taking short-term action to boost stock prices at the expense of long-term viability? It's because they care about the short, you care about the long, and you have no voice when you're in an index fund. You want to know why CEOs are issuing debt to do stock buybacks? To empire build by paying too much for their competitors? To play accounting games to boost short-term earnings?

Index funds are the tail that's wagging the dog, and they are going to be a disaster. And unlike derivatives, which can mess with stock prices but largely leave the fundamental structure of the company untouched, the dog that's being wagged here is the viability of globally important corporations that we depend on.

They were fine when 5% of the market just piggy backed onto the other passive (though attentive) investors. But now passive and inattentive investors are a massive proportion of the market.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warren Buffett says it's OK, and has an excellent explanation for this. If I recall correctly: imagine you take all the investors in the US economy and put them in a room. Divide the room in halves. One side contains all the active investors, the other side contains all the passive investors. If each side owns roughly half of the economy, their returns will be equal. In that case, it's better to sit on the side with…

Buffett is close to winning a $1 million, 10-year bet he made with the head of the hedge fund Protege Partners. The bet was simple. Buffett would invest in a Vanguard S&P 500 index fund, and the hedge fund could do anything they wanted. http://fortune.com/2016/05/11/warren-buffett-hedge-fund-bet/ http://www.npr.org/2016/03/10/469897691/armed-with-an-index-...

The irony of course is that Buffett became one of the world's richest people by being an active investor.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#113
post #111

I'm going to use this as an opportunity to yet again rail against the idea of indexing. It's a good thing in theory, but like most things, when it's taken to extremes, it's horrible. Passive investments wherein the investor takes zero interest in these investments are and have always been a terrible idea, and nothing in modern history has facilitated this more than index funds. When you give a friend of a friend $10,…

I disagree.

For one thing, there are still plenty of active investors around. The fact that the less active investors around, the easier it is for them to make returns, will help the market stable and full of "enough" investors.

It is absurd to worry right now about not having enough finance professionals, considering just how many people are in the market.

In terms of what's best for a single person deciding where to invest money right now, indexing seems to provide the best opportunity. It's clear that most investors will not spend the requisite time tracking companies, nor should they considering the benefit of specialization.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#114

Here is a graph of my personal account which I manage myself vs the S&P 500 index. I am currently beating it with gains on the year of 7.3%, but only thanks to the last couple of strong months. I was deep in the red early on. http://imgur.com/a/XHNTZ

It's not even a year old.

I'm not sure I get your point. Many active funds beat the S&P 500 over 5 or even 10 years.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#115
post #113
post #111

I'm going to use this as an opportunity to yet again rail against the idea of indexing. It's a good thing in theory, but like most things, when it's taken to extremes, it's horrible. Passive investments wherein the investor takes zero interest in these investments are and have always been a terrible idea, and nothing in modern history has facilitated this more than index funds. When you give a friend of a friend $10,…

I disagree. For one thing, there are still plenty of active investors around. The fact that the less active investors around, the easier it is for them to make returns, will help the market stable and full of "enough" investors. It is absurd to worry right now about not having enough finance professionals, considering just how many people are in the market. In terms of what's best for a single person deciding where t…

I appreciate your opinion, but when I see that companies like JNJ are 67% owned by Mutual Funds and Institutional Investors[1], most of whom are low-cost and inactive, it tells me we've gone too far.

An I am not advocating for more finance professionals. Paying active managers to invest for you can cause the same problems I'm talking about. I'm advocating for personal responsibility and attentiveness.

[1] http://finance.yahoo.com/quote/JNJ/holders?p=JNJ

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buffett is close to winning a $1 million, 10-year bet he made with the head of the hedge fund Protege Partners. The bet was simple. Buffett would invest in a Vanguard S&P 500 index fund, and the hedge fund could do anything they wanted. http://fortune.com/2016/05/11/warren-buffett-hedge-fund-bet/ http://www.npr.org/2016/03/10/469897691/armed-with-an-index-...

The irony of course is that Buffett became one of the world's richest people by being an active investor.

True, but he (and Munger) generally invest quite conservatively. He doesn't buy for capital gain, but to hold indefinitely. He buys businesses he understands, with financials he understands, for prices he figures reflect a fair discount on the economic value, plus a generous margin of error.

When full ownership is taken (his preferred option), the original management is almost always left in place. No rules or guidance are given. The subsidiaries work however they worked before acquisition.

That said, after reading through his 50 Berkshire Hathaway letters, the main lesson I drew was: own insurance companies which underwrite for profit under all economic conditions.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#117
post #111

I'm going to use this as an opportunity to yet again rail against the idea of indexing. It's a good thing in theory, but like most things, when it's taken to extremes, it's horrible. Passive investments wherein the investor takes zero interest in these investments are and have always been a terrible idea, and nothing in modern history has facilitated this more than index funds. When you give a friend of a friend $10,…

>When you give a friend of a friend $10,000 to start a company, do you just hand it over no questions asked and with no follow-up? Or do you try to get engaged with your investment?

That would depend on the company and the agreement we make on how I'll get compensated (will I own a %, etc)? That agreement is clear when investing in a fund. Once we have an agreement, my only concern is he/she keeps their end of the deal.

>Make sure the CEO isn't sitting on his ass collecting a paycheck? Scrutinize it for potential frauds?

Unless you're buying your own stocks, this is a potential problem with every fund, not just index funds.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#118
post #23

I'm a big believer in index funds and have been putting my money into them for a long time. But... you have to wonder where this is all ending up as more and more people move to passive index funds. The power of the market is based on millions of individual opinions on the price of a company's stock. On average, over time, these collective opinions will be correct. But say in the extreme case, it got to the point whe…

I suspect that if there is a big bond crash which is likely to happen a lot of those invested in index funds that robotically invested in bonds will be taking some big losses.

Yeah, that's the point. You rise with the market, you fall with the market.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buffett is close to winning a $1 million, 10-year bet he made with the head of the hedge fund Protege Partners. The bet was simple. Buffett would invest in a Vanguard S&P 500 index fund, and the hedge fund could do anything they wanted. http://fortune.com/2016/05/11/warren-buffett-hedge-fund-bet/ http://www.npr.org/2016/03/10/469897691/armed-with-an-index-...

The irony of course is that Buffett became one of the world's richest people by being an active investor.

Precisely by being an investor in the old sense, the sense of being a businessman who allocates capital. He buys entire companies based on his analysis of their financials and management, and then operates them as businesses. He tries to take stakes in companies in deals where he holds an advantage, such as his Goldman Sachs investment. I don't consider him a stock picker, he's a very shrewd businessman.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#120
post #23

I'm a big believer in index funds and have been putting my money into them for a long time. But... you have to wonder where this is all ending up as more and more people move to passive index funds. The power of the market is based on millions of individual opinions on the price of a company's stock. On average, over time, these collective opinions will be correct. But say in the extreme case, it got to the point whe…

Simple. When everybody is in an index fund composed of the whole market, then everybody agrees their money ought to become more valuable and poof, so it is.

What could possibly go wrong?

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