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A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

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Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#31
post #12

One you decide to invest in an index fund, what "advice" needs to be automated ?

Risk management and asset allocation that matches changes in your personal life and your risk profile.

For example: If you know you need to use $200,000 within next two years, you might want to start moving part of that sum slowly from stock index fund into other less volatile assets (like bonds etc).

You can do that for yourself approximately without knowing about theory, but if there is cheap automated system that can provide personal solution based on portfolio management theory with few bucks, it's can be worth of the small sum they ask.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get what you mean. You can buy and hold, and keep buying.

But then it's not a one time-fee. More generally, your strategy only works if you're investing a large amount every time, it doesn't scale down. You can't put 10k into 5000 stocks, and even 500 stocks would be difficult.

> But then it's not a one time-fee.

I meant one time per line, not per portfolio.

> it doesn't scale down.

It scales down just fine if you're willing to accept that you're going to pay a lot in broker fees, with the only consolation that you'll pay them only once per line in your portfolio.

If you have say 500 stocks and pay like $10 in broker fees per stock, in the end you'll pay $5000. That's not the end of the world for a long term investment.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#33
post #12

One you decide to invest in an index fund, what "advice" needs to be automated ?

The most important advice is to stay the course and leave your investment alone. I read somewhere that the biggest gainers at Fidelity (?) were those who forgot they had an account at all.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#34

Being lucky doesn't explain the existence of Renaissance Technologies[1], one of the very first quant fund companies, which has averaged a 71.8% annual return from 1994 through mid-2014. In fact, "the fund’s worst year was a 21 percent gain, after subtracting fees". Of course, it's very much of an outlier — just like Facebook / Google / Uber, if we retrospectively see startup funding and hedge fund investing. [1]: ht…

The point is not that all human-picked funds/portfolios perform worst than index funds, but that most of them do.

Go over to Bogleheads and say that. They'll set you straight pretty fast. The point is that over a long enough period of time, there is no advantage to managed funds vs. index funds and the managed funds usually underperform. Some firms have played tricks with their funds to make them appear to beat the market, but it's never sustained.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#35
post #29
post #23

I'm a big believer in index funds and have been putting my money into them for a long time. But... you have to wonder where this is all ending up as more and more people move to passive index funds. The power of the market is based on millions of individual opinions on the price of a company's stock. On average, over time, these collective opinions will be correct. But say in the extreme case, it got to the point whe…

There are companies which will fairly obviously perform well in the future. However, because of active investing, this projected performance gets priced in, so they aren't a bargain. If the whole world except one active investor invested in indexes, then the active investor would have a very easy time, since that projected performance wouldn't be priced in and the stock would be a bargain.

Who would that investor trade with?

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#36
post #18

Me, I don't even believe in funds. If managers are not better than blindfolded monkeys, why should we even pay them? Just buy diversified stocks, and never sell unless you need cash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_and_hold

As some of those stocks grow and some shrink, you'll end up overweighted in certain categories and no longer diversified.

That's negligible, imho.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#37
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's much cheaper to buy ETFs compared to buying single stocks. Also easier to rebalance in a diversified portfolio. The key is to pay as little in fees as possible.

> I think it's much cheaper to buy ETFs compared to buying single stocks. You will pay a lot more but it'll be a one time cost. Whereas ETF fees are a yearly one. > Also easier to rebalance in a diversified portfolio. The strategy I was talking about means you should never have to do that.

I don't think this conversation can really proceed in a sensible manner without the introduction of some numbers.

Retail brokers typically charge a commission per trade. If you want to buy many different securities ('cuz diversification), and you don't have a whole lot of money to invest in the first place, you're going to end up paying a large percentage of your initial investment in commission. The exact amount will depend on your broker and how much money you had to begin with, and how many stocks you're diversifying among. That means you might be starting from a fairly deep hole to have to dig yourself out of before you're truly earning a positive return.

By contrast, with ETFs you only have to pay commission on no more than a handful of trades to get a well-diversified initial investment laid out. Your expected earnings rate might be fractionally lower, but since you're starting from a much shallower hole, you might have a decent head start compared to buying a well-diversified portfolio individual stocks.

So then you've got two theoretical curves describing how your wealth might grow, and whether one is more favorable than the other depends on whether those two lines are likely to intersect at a point that comes before your investment horizon.

Then you can throw in still more complications that, IMO, can make ETFs still look quite a bit more favorable than stocks for most investors. One is that many retail brokerages (Vanguard, for example) will let you buy a selection of ETFs for zero commission. That's a gift that keeps on giving, since it dramatically reduces the cost of making smaller investments more frequently.

Another is that picking stocks is a time-consuming process - you have to spend time learning how to do it, and then you have to spend time researching stocks. If you agree that time is money, then you should probably be including some estimate of the value of your time into the formula. You want your expected returns from manually selecting a portfolio to be great enough to justify your time. Which is yet another calculation that is going to be heavily influenced by individual factors, particularly how much money you have to play with, what your current earnings are, and most importantly, whether or not you think it's fun to pick stocks.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#39
post #16

Being lucky doesn't explain the existence of Renaissance Technologies[1], one of the very first quant fund companies, which has averaged a 71.8% annual return from 1994 through mid-2014. In fact, "the fund’s worst year was a 21 percent gain, after subtracting fees". Of course, it's very much of an outlier — just like Facebook / Google / Uber, if we retrospectively see startup funding and hedge fund investing. [1]: ht…

Point is, could you have identified Renaissance Technologies in 1994 as one of the few companies to beat the market? If not, then your odds are better going with an index fund. At this point, because of Renaissance Technologies' success, their fees will likely offset the gains they'll net you.

They still make you tons of money net of fees. However, because of their success, they very quickly attracted all the money they thought they could handle and closed the fund to new investors.

I think recently their performance slipped a bit and they started taking money again, but the above point was true for a long time.

Re: A Professor Who Was Right About Index Funds All Along

#40
post #23

I'm a big believer in index funds and have been putting my money into them for a long time. But... you have to wonder where this is all ending up as more and more people move to passive index funds. The power of the market is based on millions of individual opinions on the price of a company's stock. On average, over time, these collective opinions will be correct. But say in the extreme case, it got to the point whe…

In any auction, there has to be the first person declaring what the item is worth. If 100% of the investing is passive, there is no first bidder, so how is a stock's value determined?

In the current situation, 34% of the money passively follows the active investors. That gives the active investors a 34% amplifier in their action.

I'd say the possible bad news is that the larger the passive pool, the less capital it takes to manipulate a stock price.

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