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Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

nytimes.com

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Re: Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

#71

Post by jomamaxx »

tormeh wrote: post #46
gok wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is inconsistent at all. They're laying off mostly people in their rail division, which is based in Germany and doing poorly. They're asking for some government support for the aerospace group, which is based in Canada and doing ok, but facing lots of competition from Airbus and Embraer, which also receive government support.

I wonder why governments subsidize production of commercial airliners so much. There are no network effects or lock-in, so there is nothing to milk after you've gotten big, just more need for subsidies. And jet fighters etc. are usually made by different manufacturers altogether, except for military freighters.

"I wonder why governments subsidize production of commercial airliners so much. There are no network effects or lock-in"

Huge lock-in :)

Aircraft manufacturers are all semi-nationalized they are 'too big' even for private capital to compete on - barriers to entry far too high and too much risk.

Airbus is literally an EU creation. Boeing lives on defence contracts.

So it needs 'a national team playing for it' kind of thing.

There are a lot of jobs, it's very long term, it's big money, involves a lot of tech and R&D so it's a good industry to have if you can get it going. But it doesn't get going without playing 'home team'.

Re: Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

#72

Post by acveilleux »

tormeh wrote: post #46
gok wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is inconsistent at all. They're laying off mostly people in their rail division, which is based in Germany and doing poorly. They're asking for some government support for the aerospace group, which is based in Canada and doing ok, but facing lots of competition from Airbus and Embraer, which also receive government support.

I wonder why governments subsidize production of commercial airliners so much. There are no network effects or lock-in, so there is nothing to milk after you've gotten big, just more need for subsidies. And jet fighters etc. are usually made by different manufacturers altogether, except for military freighters.

There are network effects actually.

Bombardier is one of the main anchors around which many major aircraft industry company are located. In turn those suppliers also help explain the Bell Helicopter Textron plant.

I'm thinking of companies like Safran Landing Systems (formerly Messier-Dowty), Pratt-Whitney Canada (one of, if not the, largest producer of turboprops and turboshafts engines), CAE (sims, avionic), Thales (avionic), Héroux-Devtek (landing gears), etc. Plus all the smaller subcontractors.

Re: Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

#73

Post by JumpCrisscross »

tormeh wrote: post #46
gok wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is inconsistent at all. They're laying off mostly people in their rail division, which is based in Germany and doing poorly. They're asking for some government support for the aerospace group, which is based in Canada and doing ok, but facing lots of competition from Airbus and Embraer, which also receive government support.

I wonder why governments subsidize production of commercial airliners so much. There are no network effects or lock-in, so there is nothing to milk after you've gotten big, just more need for subsidies. And jet fighters etc. are usually made by different manufacturers altogether, except for military freighters.

Aircraft manufacturers develop dual-use technologies. No plane makers in peacetime means no war plane makers in war.

Re: Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

#74

Post by dpc59 »

omouse wrote: post #61
JoelBennett wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like they've been having financial difficulties for the last 10-20 years. It's almost like they are the Radio Shack of trains/plains/snowmobiles.

But since they're a Canadian company and we protect our own, they continue to win contracts because we're too conservative and risk-averse to allow new companies to be formed and let Bombardier lay people off. It's finally happening and I'm glad. It sucks that 7500 people are losing their jobs but they have valuable skills that will be more useful at Bombardier's existing competitors and future, not yet created compe…

The reason why it'S so uncompetitive is because we still have a bunch of colonial institutions. We're colonized by our own oligarchy.

Re: Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

#75

Post by idiot900 »

douche wrote: post #15
dsjoerg wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visible to who? I only know of them because I ride in subway cars they made. http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-service... Nobody rides ATVs, snowmobiles and jetskis. Everyone rides the subway.

I've never ridden in a Bombardier subway car. I have driven a Bombardier snowmobile.

The NYC subway system is full of Bombardier subway cars, in case you've been there.

Re: Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

#76

Post by ConfuciusSay02 »

omouse wrote: post #62
ConfuciusSay02 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won't happen, because the Quebec government will not allow it.

Because canadians are risk-averse. Hence why only the banks have been continuing to make money; they even invest in each other to keep the risk-averse cycle going.

It's also due to, in the case of the Quebec government, nationalistic sentiment.

It's a difficult balance to strike - keeping and supporting high tech manufacturing, while trying to remain competitive. I think at the moment, the government intervention (blocking suitors and direct investment) is in fact doing more harm than good, but perhaps they know better - I have no knowledge of how competitive the C-Series really is or not.

Re: Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

#77

Post by gozur88 »

jomamaxx wrote: post #71
tormeh wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why governments subsidize production of commercial airliners so much. There are no network effects or lock-in, so there is nothing to milk after you've gotten big, just more need for subsidies. And jet fighters etc. are usually made by different manufacturers altogether, except for military freighters.

"I wonder why governments subsidize production of commercial airliners so much. There are no network effects or lock-in" Huge lock-in :) Aircraft manufacturers are all semi-nationalized they are 'too big' even for private capital to compete on - barriers to entry far too high and too much risk. Airbus is literally an EU creation. Boeing lives on defence contracts. So it needs 'a national team playing for it' kind of…

>There are a lot of jobs, it's very long term, it's big money, involves a lot of tech and R&D so it's a good industry to have if you can get it going. But it doesn't get going without playing 'home team'.

You don't really have a choice on subsidies if you want a home-grown aerospace industry in the current climate. Other countries subsidize heavily.

In theory we have international agreements preventing such things, but there are a lot of ways to subsidize a company.

Re: Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

#78

Post by tajen »

iamatworknow wrote: post #65
forgetsusername wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the sum of the losses has a noticeable impact on the economy I get what you're saying, but...does it? If I look at global real GDP, we're going along, business as usual. As the OP says, jobs are gained and lost on a much greater scale, monthly. There's a reason that jobs are being shed at this particular company, and it isn't because we no longer need transportation infrastructure. Bombardier is out, Tesla is in.

>Bombardier is out, Tesla is in. Pump the brakes there. The next time you ride the subway or take a commuter flight you won't be riding on a Tesla train car or aircraft. I get that the average HN visitor is enamored with Elon and Tesla, but c'mon now.

Tesla has 14,000 employees today, expects to hire 6,000 more in the Gigafactory 1.

Re: Bombardier to Cut 7,500 More Jobs Through 2018, Most in Rail

#80

Post by jfoutz »

Declanomous wrote: post #50
arethuza wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it was a very good place to work - lots of extremely smart people, which is probably why I remember the apparent failure (or unwillingness) to make that inference.

That's understandable. There probably isn't much they can do in that situation, it's a textbook prisoners dilemma. I'm not sure what your experience was like, but I'd rather be told the truth than lied to. I understand that the directors of a company are people too, and they want to be seen as good people. In the long run, I respect people who told me a difficult truth much more than I respect the people who made it…

laying off 1% of the workforce every 6 months for 2 years is crushing. The good people quit, morale is wretched. layoffs hurt. Usually coworkers are likeable if not friends, and they're suddenly screwed.

I don't know if it's good recession advice, but if a company has to make cuts, it's way way better do a little too much very quickly. It's weird for a month then things start getting back together.

I've never worked anywhere where upper management didn't take 50% pay cuts with layoffs. (i'm sure they were restored in 6 months or whenever the business restabilized). Actually that announcement probably kept a lot of people from just leaving after the layoff.

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