I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me • Hacker News Board

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#251

Post by michael_h » Fri, Oct 21, 2016, 6:50 PM UTC

qb45 wrote: post #194

exolymph wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, prostitution is physically sexual. So it's more like someone who gets addicted to camgirls. However those situations are mutually honest transactions. In this case she's being deceived and lacks the strength of character or mental stability to fully realize that or cope with it. I do agree that she's probably starved for affection. Frankly, an escort or camgirl habit could be cheaper.

> I do agree that she's probably starved for affection. This. And I suspect she's paying for the appearance of being treated seriously and having her emotions treated seriously, which OP clearly fails to deliver by arguing that she's wrong. I don't have many constructive ideas what to do, but don't repeat things that have never worked in the past and pay attention to her needs, not yours, might be a good starting poi…

This line of reasoning is repeated in every single thread about the romance scams, and it's enraging.

You have no idea what the situation is. This isn't some old lady we stuffed in an apartment and ignored on the other side of the city. My wife talks to her every day and we see her in person 4-5 times a week. She comes over for dinner every single weekend. She was treated seriously, right up until the point that she lost her life savings and started laundering money.

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#252

Post by michael_h » Fri, Oct 21, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

n72 wrote: post #217

whiddershins wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fully understand your situation, and it must be horrible and frustrating and painful, but there must be some way you can get through to her?

In my father's case (which sounds similar to micheal_h's), the problem is that the more you give away the more difficult it become to admit it's a scam since you have to admit both that the love you're looking for doesn't exist as well as the fact that you've been a complete idiot. It's a vicious cycle.

Absolutely. I've heard the phrase "If I quit now, I'll have nothing" about fifty times this week.

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#253

Post by Johnny555 » Fri, Oct 21, 2016, 7:52 PM UTC

kahrkunne wrote: post #246

Johnny555 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the time, his doctor and attorney said that while his behavior may have been out of character, it was not egregious enough to get a court order declaring him mentally incompetent. One of those professionals recommended (completely off the record and in literally whispered voice) the route that we followed.

So he was not mentally incompetent, and you illegally took all his money, and you still think this is defensible? I'll never understand you people, thinking you have the right to touch other's property and decide their lives, because you think you know better than them. (and then collectively downvoting me to hell because I dare to defend the right to private property of mentally competent people and condemning theft…

You seem to be confusing legality with ethics, or perhaps morality.

But in any case, since you're convinced he was fully mentally competent, then what was illegal? He must have fully understood that the power of attorney paperwork he signed was transferring full financial control. And it'd be hard to argue that the money was not managed in his best interests.

So if a fully competent adult willingly signs away financial decisions for his money, and those decisions are made, what problem do you have with it? After all, it was his decision to sign the paperwork, if a grown man wants to hand over financial control to someone else, why should anyone stand in his way? Just like in your scenario, if a grown man wants to hand over his life savings to anyone that can tell a sad story, why should anyone stand in his way?

Regardless of what arguments were made to persuade him that signing the paperwork was a good idea, the details were all clearly spelled out in the paperwork.

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#254

Post by ejanus » Fri, Oct 21, 2016, 8:05 PM UTC

M_Grey wrote: post #139

pavel_lishin wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue the same thing about Christianity in general; didn't Jesus prophesize his return to occur within a very short time after his death?

Who knows. It's hard to tell at a 2000 year remove, when it's known that various scriptures have been heavily edited, redacted, etc. Mostly it seems like he was an early version of "Reform" Judaism that turned into a cult.

Any supporting materials to what you just said?

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#255

Post by logicallee » Fri, Oct 21, 2016, 8:50 PM UTC

qb45 wrote: post #248

logicallee wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from what you've just stated it's fine. What I meant is that there are people who believe you could levitate objects with your mind (like in the xmen comic books) and since you're writing about things that are already really, really outlandish it's SUPER-important not to fall into a comic-book style of narration!! :) If you thought you (or anyone) could actually levitate objects with your mind (and no technology) the…

> Just be clear that what you've shared with us just now already sounds like a comic book!! :) I mean, you've literally written that there are people who ask people to kill someone and get body parts, as part of voodoo. There are people walking around naked after being given drugs. OP's stuff is business as usual, really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_cannibali... You have it all - magic, satanis…

Uh, remind me not to come over for dinner. Seriously if you think OP's account is, business as usual, well - you and I live in different worlds, or you've seen a lot more of the seedy underbelly of criminal organizations than I have! Which is what makes OP's write-up interesting.

It's interesting because it's first-person. The list you've given is interesting too but all over the map - OP can report as a direct source, in the first person, not curate information from elsewhere. (Which is why I think it's important for him to not to accidentally sound like he's saying he's able to levitate things with his mind or anything like that. his followup makes this clear.)

if he does write something, you don't have to read it - but I certainly will!

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#256

Post by M_Grey » Fri, Oct 21, 2016, 9:12 PM UTC

ejanus wrote: post #254

M_Grey wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who knows. It's hard to tell at a 2000 year remove, when it's known that various scriptures have been heavily edited, redacted, etc. Mostly it seems like he was an early version of "Reform" Judaism that turned into a cult.

Any supporting materials to what you just said?

http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_th...

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/17/138281522/how-bible-stories-ev...

https://skepticalteacher.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/the-embarr...

Beyond that, it's the entire history of the document, with the first 400 or so years being particularly amusing. To be clear, it's not like the same isn't true for other scriptures. You know that lovely story about Moses' birth? Just a ripoff of Sargon of Akkad's origin story, which was almost certainly not original.

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#257

Post by qb45 » Fri, Oct 21, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #255

qb45 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just be clear that what you've shared with us just now already sounds like a comic book!! :) I mean, you've literally written that there are people who ask people to kill someone and get body parts, as part of voodoo. There are people walking around naked after being given drugs. OP's stuff is business as usual, really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_cannibali... You have it all - magic, satanis…

Uh, remind me not to come over for dinner. Seriously if you think OP's account is, business as usual, well - you and I live in different worlds, or you've seen a lot more of the seedy underbelly of criminal organizations than I have! Which is what makes OP's write-up interesting. It's interesting because it's first-person. The list you've given is interesting too but all over the map - OP can report as a direct sourc…

No, I have no direct experience with that extreme stuff, but I grew up in somewhat violent neighborhood. And to this day I have a mild fascination with all things NSFL ;)

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#258

Post by wruza » Fri, Oct 21, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

kahrkunne wrote: post #246

Johnny555 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the time, his doctor and attorney said that while his behavior may have been out of character, it was not egregious enough to get a court order declaring him mentally incompetent. One of those professionals recommended (completely off the record and in literally whispered voice) the route that we followed.

So he was not mentally incompetent, and you illegally took all his money, and you still think this is defensible? I'll never understand you people, thinking you have the right to touch other's property and decide their lives, because you think you know better than them. (and then collectively downvoting me to hell because I dare to defend the right to private property of mentally competent people and condemning theft…

I'm here to say that you're not alone even when downvoted.

My grand-uncle (brother of grandmother) was always 'strange' for all my family, for the entire life, because he had some ideas unavailable to mere mortals that live their cooking-eating-relaxing lives. But when we spoke in his room full of books and maps, I was surprised how many things he knew and did. He spoke on 6 (iirc) languages and traveled a lot on ex-ussr territory. In last years he suffered a stroke and became helpless for some time and cannot speak with usual speed. Ofc family members took care of him, but now that they are stronger and faster thinking, they can laugh on his intents and not take his wishes seriously, saying he is dumb. It's all about cooking-eating now. Though recently one day he just went to train station, bought a ticket a met his friend in other city (800km). He returned succesfully. He is not an idiot, I visited him after disease and he is still my grand-uncle, the same mindset, just very slow speaking and thinking. Others don't give a fck. No, they treat him with care, but never seriously. That's hell.

Now, dear reader (not to kahrkunne, he already knows it), after you read that, I beg you, please stop supporting that awful attitude to a human being* who lived his life and now wants to spend his worth as he wants. Do not put your nose into his business, because there is a chance that your comfortable-cooking-eating mind just cannot understand what life is about.

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#259

Post by berntb » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 6:38 AM UTC

Pica_soO wrote: post #181

berntb wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that was written by a secondary account from someone here. It seems to be a common way around the HN demands for civility... :-( Regarding the victim, my guess would be on early stages of dementia and/or emotional trauma after becoming a widow. But if I would discuss this with a victim, I would try bringing up the psychology of a scammer. First in general terms, like the Nigeria letters, then the specifics a…

Interesting point on the psychology of "bad" people. Could this logic relation be inverted? If you see humans as evil, you are more likely to be a criminal or evil-doer? Thus Pessimism is the first stage of psychopathy? I weep for the species. Also weeping for science.

Sorry for coming back late.

I didn't study psychology, but from reading a bit and seeing people over the years -- I think there is a common thread with a need for perpetrators to dehumanize their victims.

About being depressed over humanity:

Compare clan societies with modern welfare states. The genes are about the same, so humans are really flexible from cultural programming. Just think about how to organize societies to make for nice places and nice people.

The point is -- don't weep for humanity any more than you would weep for cameras, because they might also be used to make bad art. Instead, wonder how to improve art education.

Re: I went to Nigeria to meet a man who scammed me

#260

Post by qb45 » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 3:48 PM UTC

michael_h wrote: post #251

qb45 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do agree that she's probably starved for affection. This. And I suspect she's paying for the appearance of being treated seriously and having her emotions treated seriously, which OP clearly fails to deliver by arguing that she's wrong. I don't have many constructive ideas what to do, but don't repeat things that have never worked in the past and pay attention to her needs, not yours, might be a good starting poi…

This line of reasoning is repeated in every single thread about the romance scams, and it's enraging. You have no idea what the situation is. This isn't some old lady we stuffed in an apartment and ignored on the other side of the city. My wife talks to her every day and we see her in person 4-5 times a week. She comes over for dinner every single weekend. She was treated seriously, right up until the point that she…

My armchair speculation, based on interactions with some genuine freaks, is that she secretly is shit scared of making a fool of herself. In front of you, in front of others, in front of herself. And I really mean scared - she doesn't talk about it to anyone, doesn't even think about it, just avoids this issue altogether. Every possible action, every idea which leads to thoughts of failure is rejected.

Remember it's not only quarter million bucks, but also her romantic feelings and her faith in this scammer and people in general. And her judgment and common sense.

So by some stupid fluke she took this risk and now she will do everything to make it work and prove she's right. The scammer offers her a path forward by promising happiness ever after, you guys don't because you keep telling her she will fail. This is roughly what I meant by "appearance of being treated seriously".

Probably she had never been that much of a fool, maybe she heard people laughing at others who had, it's entirely possible that it just doesn't occur to her that anyone could be understood and respected after such a spectacular failure. Especially if all the way along everybody was telling her she's wrong. Now if she fails she expects to be alone with it and have no one to understand her. So she can't afford her marriage plan to fail and will systematically disregard all of your advice which would kill this plan.

So what can you do? Don't listen to me, I may be totally off the mark. Don't care too much about her words, don't argue, instead pay close attention to her emotions. BTW, don't expect her to acknowledge them verbally if you catch her hiding them, it's going nowhere. Figure out what she wants, what gives her hope, what makes her anxious (probably most of the things you've been doing so far). Let her talk to heart's content about her plans regarding this scumbag and don't distance yourself from them (they are bogus anyway), let her figure it out on her own. She already has all the data to decide, but refuses to think about it. Don't treat her like a child by repeating arguments she could already recite from memory or expecting her to say one thing or another. It's her internal thoughts that really matter and you know none of it.

Think. Get help from a pro psychologist if you don't trust Internet smart-asses. Disregard anything that doesn't apply, it's all based on my observations.