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How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

builderonline.com

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Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep waiting for California to go the way of Israel and have more fresh water than they need. It would really help out the West if the coast could make use of the water that is right next to them. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/israel-proves-the...

Right, you just have to import more fossil fuel. Problem solved. A desalination plant is a direct trade of energy for fresh water, and isn't our bottomless appetite for energy already making a mess of things?

Solar desalination would be quite effective for California.

Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#52
post #44
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, and they tend to have the politics whose practical effects ended up driving them from California in the first place. I'd like to see an amendment to the Constitution which provided for internal immigration, such that there's a multi-year waiting period to become a state citizen after moving to a new state. The idea would be to give folks a period of time to acclimate & acculturate to their new state's politics.…

[citation needed]

The politics of Colorado, Florida, Oregon, Virginia & Washington have all noticeably undergone this effect over the past forty years.

Heck, that effect was the entire reason for Bloody Kansas, with pro- and anti-slavery people moving into the territory in order to influence its politics. It's why the Free State Project exists. It's why some politicians want to decrease immigration, and others want to increase it.

I'm curious why you think it doesn't exist. It's hardly an extraordinary claim, and makes perfect sense: people from a place have the habits of mind common to that place; when they move elsewhere, they retain those habits of mind for some time. Even if they were outliers at home, they are more likely to be like their former neighbours than a random subset of their new ones (ever noticed how much you have in common with a fellow countryman you meet whilst travelling abroad? It's the same effect).

And when there is a tremendous influx of people from one particular place into another particular place, then one will be more likely to find people from the former place in the latter — that's just math.

Maybe you find this good, but I don't: we should try to figure out what makes a state the sort of place people move from rather than the sort of place people move to, and replicate that.

(in California's case, I think it's the sort of place people move to because they must and from because they can)

Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep waiting for California to go the way of Israel and have more fresh water than they need. It would really help out the West if the coast could make use of the water that is right next to them. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/israel-proves-the...

How do we go from waiting to doing?

There's not a great answer that isn't "Convince the government to spend tons of money on it" I feel like. Desalination is FAR more expensive than doing what we're currently doing (that is, getting it fresh to start). Until that balance tips it's unlikely we'd invest into desalination heavily.

Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#54
post #4

> you’re in the hole by at least $50,000 before you even put a shovel in the ground So, the equivalent of people's downpayment in the rest of the country is lost to regulation. That's insane.

The national average is $21k, so really it's $29k you're out over what the rest of the country charges.

Which is not ideal, but on a $600k+ ($29k is 5% or less) home, let alone a $1m home, that simply isn't the primary cost driver.

========

The whole article seems like it's poorly written or actively attempting to mislead. It's not until 1/2 way through that you learn:

Prop 13 stymies local tax increases, which means housing is an enormous cost for cities because they can't recoup their costs through property taxes. Instead, taxes go to the state government.

I dunno, could you imagine that severing the link between new development which increases local costs (schools, roads, utilities, police) and local income could affect cities' interest in building housing? Unlike complaints about environmental impact costs, this seems like a much more plausible explanation for the lack of housing.

Then the article finally explains that building impact fees are the only way local cities have to recoup their direct costs, which explains their rise. Why wasn't that in the first 1/2 of the article?

Also, prop 13 means rising prices are all to the good for home owners. In most (all?) other states, rising property prices mean homeowners pay more tax, which creates an incentive for homeowners to oppose too large an increase in home prices.

Finally, the complaining about the Zero Net Energy mandate is misleading as well when it presents it only as a negative. A few minutes research will show that it's intended to curb the growth of energy requirements. Power plants are big, expensive, and tend to pollute a lot. If we want to have 45m people in CA, we have to be judicious about how much pollution our state can withstand. And someone has to pay for those new power plants we will have to bring online if we don't curb power usage growth.

Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#55
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then it takes them a few more paragraphs to point out that is for a $600k+ house. Which doesn't make it sound all that bad after all. Particularly when they point out the land itself is about 1/2 the cost. Not that any of it is good for anyone under 40...

The sale price of the house doesn't matter; it could sell for $100k or $900k, the builder is still out the $50k or more they paid out in fees. Which was most likely passed on to the buyer and I bet the mortgage companies have no complaint.

So what, its probably less than 10%, which is less than the sales taxes on most other things being purchased. We could just as well complain about the profit the builder is making, which is likely a lot more given how much most sub contractors are making.

Its sounds like a big number until you consider the final cost, aka everything is relative, it would be a much bigger deal if the houses were selling for $100k because then it would be 50% of the cost.

Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#56
So, the case that expensive housing hurts California businesses is well stated and intuitive, (and I don't disagree)

But I was considering a counter point the other day. Homeownership here means mid level engineers who have lived here a decade or two often have access to seven figure credit lines. What effect does this have on the entrepreneurial side of things here?

To be clear, I am not putting this fourth as a fully formed belief, but it is an interesting argument, I think, and worth talking about.

Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#57
post #31
post #9

Started out with an every-man appealing headline and quickly showed its stripes of being a developer funded prop 13 hit article - totally separate from the horror show environmental impact has turned into. The examples given are completely out of whack and strawmen. prop 13 allows for effective tax increase through reassessment of value, but that reassessment is capped so when the market goes crazy people aren't driv…

> that reassessment is capped so when the market goes crazy people aren't driven out of their homes By definition, the people who would be "driven out" have seen their home values wildly appreciate and they have by that token become substantially wealthy. This is like saying that if someone is on food stamps but then becomes a millionaire, it's unfair to take away their foodstamps or raise their tax rate.

No, it's like saying that when someone has an illiquid asset theoretically worth $1 million but not actually capable of being traded for cash, it is unfair to take away their food stamps and leave them with no way to buy food. The general idea is that it is impossible to trade in the value of your house for any replacement for 'spend my retirement in the area I spent my working life in', because the other houses that fulfil that requirement will also have appreciated in value.

Edit: I mean, even actual food stamps don't make you sell your house to qualify.

Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#58
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sale price of the house doesn't matter; it could sell for $100k or $900k, the builder is still out the $50k or more they paid out in fees. Which was most likely passed on to the buyer and I bet the mortgage companies have no complaint.

So what, its probably less than 10%, which is less than the sales taxes on most other things being purchased. We could just as well complain about the profit the builder is making, which is likely a lot more given how much most sub contractors are making. Its sounds like a big number until you consider the final cost, aka everything is relative, it would be a much bigger deal if the houses were selling for $100k beca…

Yes, but the whole point is that the fees are part of the reason why the house costs that much. If you wanted the final house to cost $100k, then you'd have to actually build it for $50k. Which may not even be possible, or if it was it would be so tiny that nobody would want it.

They're basically forced to build a (relatively) big expensive house so that the final cost seems reasonable despite the $50k in fees buried in it. Hence why they aren't building entry-level priced houses - they're too cheap to hide the fixed fees.

Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#59
post #31
post #9

Started out with an every-man appealing headline and quickly showed its stripes of being a developer funded prop 13 hit article - totally separate from the horror show environmental impact has turned into. The examples given are completely out of whack and strawmen. prop 13 allows for effective tax increase through reassessment of value, but that reassessment is capped so when the market goes crazy people aren't driv…

> that reassessment is capped so when the market goes crazy people aren't driven out of their homes By definition, the people who would be "driven out" have seen their home values wildly appreciate and they have by that token become substantially wealthy. This is like saying that if someone is on food stamps but then becomes a millionaire, it's unfair to take away their foodstamps or raise their tax rate.

Pretending that home equity is like a bank account is just silly.

They're wealthy, but can only access that wealth by moving somewhere else (probably out of state), becoming homeless, or taking on potentially risky bets like a reverse mortgage.

Re: How did an entire state price itself out for entry-level home buyers?

#60
“Cities will tell you that from a property tax perspective, housing is a loser,” says David Cogdill, president of the [California Building Industry Association].

I was trying to make this point a few weeks ago here on HN, in a discussion on Prop. 13, and got pushback. I take this quote as evidence that it's common knowledge among people in the housing industry. Prop. 13 disincentivizes cities from adding housing.

Prop. 13 needs to be fixed. The way it should have been done is this: in a year in which property values increase by more than 2%, instead of limiting the tax to 2% more than the previous year's, we limit the payment due to 2% more than last year's payment due. The locality receives a lien on the difference, but that lien does not become due until the property is sold.

So in an area in which property values have been rapidly rising, a homeowner who sells their property will have to share their windfall to some extent with the locality. But those on fixed incomes are still protected: their annual tax payments don't increase any faster than they would today.

Common objections:

"People will take out home equity loans that will have to be repaid at sale, leaving them with a cash loss."

A property tax lien is a public record. Banks will take the liens into consideration when deciding how large a loan to offer. This is standard practice already.

"The liens will accumulate to the point that they will be greater than the owner's gain on the property, giving them a strong disincentive to sell."

No, this wouldn't happen, because the lien is only on 1% of the excess gain (the amount the value increased over 2%). If, for one example, the value jumped in the first year and then went flat, the payment would continue to grow at 2% annually until it caught up to the value. The only scenario that generates a lien larger than the owner's gain is if the market has been up but then drops sharply just before the owner wants to sell -- in short, if there was a bubble. Well, bubbles produce lots of dislocation; I don't think they make for a good argument against this proposal.

"Prop. 13 will never be modified."

Well, it certainly won't if no better alternative is put forth!

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