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Where do all the old programmers go?

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Re: Where do all the old programmers go?

#91

Post by kls »

coldcode wrote: post #8

To work is where I go (59). You won't meet a lot of people like me because when I started (1981) there were way fewer programmers than today plus some became obsolete, some became managers, and some got burned out. So the chances of meeting someone like me if you started in the past decade is not high. This of course makes it hard to decide how much age discrimination there is as it's hard to quantify, unlike gender…

42 here, started just before the Internet took off, when it hit, I jumped on full bore. Most of my peers that where a little older stuck with desktop and mainframe development. Most people don't realize how few of us where in the trade back then and even less made the jump to developing Internet technologies. So there is also a dividing like or epoch in programming where the entire discipline of development changed. In many ways the early days of Internet development was archaic if you where used to desktop development. It felt like a step backwards and development in handcuffs, so a lot of developers that had time in the industry just ignored it as there was still money to be made on the other side.

So if we look at 40 it really is a dividing line where of the few people that where doing development a small fragment of that group actually started developing in what would be somewhat relevant technologies today. Of that group, possibly only in the thousands, attrition has taken it's toll (the .com bust took a lot of them, which gets missed a lot in these discussions).

Now we have all had that bad interview, with a bad company that puts some kid fresh out of school in a lead role and he grills all new applicants on theory that is in no way relevant to what we actually do and anyone in the industry for a meaningful amount of time, has long purged that info from immediate recollection. But I don't see that as an age discrimination problem, I see it as a bad management problem, and a willful lack of understanding about technology and technologist on the part of business people (for those reading, first technical hire can make or break your company). Fortunately it has been my experience that most of those companies don't stick around for too long.

Re: Where do all the old programmers go?

#92

Post by lfowles »

kbd wrote: post #52
swah wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to hear - do you take special care of your wrists? I'm 32 and with some problems already...

A few recommendations: 1. use proper posture. Don't rest your wrists on the table as you type. Make sure your chair is an appropriate height (or your desk itself, if you're standing). 2. imo Dvorak is much more comfortable (it's not about typing speed). 3. Take up rock climbing. Seriously. It's the best exercise for your hands/wrists that I know of. Any time I've started to have hand/wrist pain I've made a point of g…

> Don't rest your wrists on the table as you type.

As mentioned in my sibling comment, this was _THE_ most important thing in getting rid of wrist pain. Not even a pad helped, it still compressed on my wrists.

Re: Where do all the old programmers go?

#94

Post by robodale »

Yetanfou wrote: post #25

They take up farming, of course. Having explored the most 'modern' parts of society they're ready for a new challenge. Also, having dealt with virtuality for so long it is time for a dose of reality. Me, I bought a farm in Sweden. Harvest is in, manure has been spread, looking to grow my first 'beer crop' (barley and hops) within a few years. The forest needs some attention but that is what winter is for. What comes…

For me this is becoming eerily true. Software dev for 15 years. I planted a grape vine behind my house 6 years ago. It now produces enough grapes for 60+ bottles of wine per year. I have room on the south side of my house for 4 more new grape vines...planted them and soon I'll have much more wine production...maybe 300 bottles per year?

I'm right now looking for some nice sunny land to buy and massively ramp things up.

Re: Where do all the old programmers go?

#95

Post by tgamba »

saiya-jin wrote: post #55
hashkb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could definitely pay me enough. Great managers help more things get built than great engineers. They do it in a different way, but as long as they don't suck, they are critical. Good managers are much harder to find than competent engineers.

I think he meant he doesn't want to do the management job. Ie moving from abstractly creative work to endless series of meetings, conf calls, creating powerpoints excels and whatnot. Yes they are necessary, but it doesn't make it a cool job that brings fulfillment and happiness. Most devs move there over time, and then complain how cool coding actually was, but they are already in money/debt trap

Yes-- that is exactly what I mean. If I found myself in an organization where management looked appealing I would make the switch. It has never happened.

Re: Where do all the old programmers go?

#96

Post by memracom »

Just how many new programmers were produced between the years 1975 to 1985? Not a whole lot. That's why you don't see too many old programmers around, because they were pioneers in a new field. They are still around but they get lost in the crowd of new younger and less-experienced programmers.

Re: Where do all the old programmers go?

#97

Post by LorenPechtel »

stray wrote: post #18

At about 40, it does start to get more difficult to get hired. And by 50, it is all but hopeless. And the salary offered begins to go down at 40 too. Sharply after 44 or so. Where I am now, at 51, I have had to learn to get by on what I was making as a SysAdmin 20 mumble years ago. But at least I have a job. Before getting my current job I was having to learn to get by without a place to live too.

As far as I'm concerned the salary curve says it all. Salary offered = perceived value. The market says we aren't good anymore.

Re: Where do all the old programmers go?

#98

Post by mywittyname »

hbcondo714 wrote: post #22
eranation wrote: post #17

They become architects / development managers / product managers / pre-sales engineers / professional services consultants / founders of startups / project managers / security advisors / dev ops managers / tech recruiters / biz dev managers / even sales...

Some of the best product managers I have worked with are former programmers...they just get it. When I hire people in these roles, I often specify "technical" in the job title to attract these former programmers.

Programming develops the skills found in good program managers. I think it's because so many of us build things that don't exist constantly. So we build a natural intuition about what are valuable problems to solve and can do it in ways that people would never consider, even "domain experts".

A domain expert might try a naive or brute force approach to a very specific problem, while a programmer would see a graphing problem and instantly think of several different techniques to apply and be able to tell what outcome they'd produce.

Re: Where do all the old programmers go?

#99

Post by Grishnakh »

hashkb wrote: post #46
tgamba wrote: post #32

At 49 I am still coding and still learning. I architected and implemented node.js services this year and have done lots of interesting modern web development. I am well respected within my organization and in fact have been poached from one team for another. Ageist hiring practices are a reality, but not all companies are so biased. And you could not pay me enough to go into management. I want to make things. Perhaps…

You could definitely pay me enough. Great managers help more things get built than great engineers. They do it in a different way, but as long as they don't suck, they are critical. Good managers are much harder to find than competent engineers.

No thanks. Management requires too many things I'm just not good at, or would be miserable spending my time doing: talking to people all day long, sitting in meetings, doing powerpoint stuff, attempting to mentor people, playing politics with upper management, doing performance reviews, etc. There's nothing there I derive any enjoyment from.

What I do wish I could do is find a job where I travel around a lot and debug problems for customers on-site. I like traveling and don't mind spending time in hotels (as long as they're nice ones), and like being able to do different things instead of the same thing day after day, month after month. I also like problem-solving and debugging (esp. when I'm not the one to blame for the bug!), and have been very good at this kind of work in past jobs.

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