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Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

arstechnica.com

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Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#51
We pretty much were set on getting a Tesla next year. The fact that they can ban me from doing whatever I want has effectively stopped me from purchasing a Tesla. Not that I plan on doing car-sharing, but I refuse to spend so much money on something that I don't actually "own".

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#52
post #9
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you think it's not enforceable? Indeed, the more restrictions Tesla adds, the more enforceable it is: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/09/the-end-of-used-m...

I'm pretty sure the EULA wouldn't be enforceable in the EU, though. The vast majority of EULAs currently in existence are unenforceable in the EU except for the most basic restrictions that would probably be obvious even without a EULA.

The legal situation right now does not matter. Who pays the lobbyists? This is a long-term plan not just of Tesla, but a corporate dream. No more danger of losing customers, when you have "the one ring" to bind them...

It won't sound evil. They will just tell the politicians that in order to invest huge sums of money they need guarantees, that the uncertainty of not binding their customers hinders job creation and investment, etc. Nothing is new in that playbook, since from their point of view it's actually not even wrong. It's not like they have to come up with some outrageous lies. Today it's Tesla, but that process has been going on for a long time. It's just too good: Control over a stable income stream instead of the ups and downs of the free market. It also appeals to people working in those firms, so again not actually clearly "evil".

It also appeals to a lot of people in our allegedly "uncertain and dangerous times" that there is ever more "order" and control. They actually have a point: The more complex out systems become, which includes the state, the more dangerous failure and the harder a recovery. Are our systems becoming more unstable? If so the trend explains itself, because that calls for more certainty and control - since changing the system itself seems to be no option because nobody knows how and what to change it to, or at least there is no trace of a consensus. So, more order and control it is.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#53

Wow. Key statement here: " but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year." Tesla Network? Uber/Lyft competitor? Plus I sure hope this won't hold up in court. I do not want a company telling me how to use my product that I paid for.

> I do not want a company telling me how to use my product that I paid for.

I'm not defending Tesla here, I just want to draw an analogy. You can't go a store, buy a DVD for $15 and then charge tickets to project to an audience. You need a different, more expensive license for that. The same applies to music and software, even if it is embedded firmware in a car.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#54
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's our responsibility to choose and support products that respect our rights and empower us. Vote with your feet.

Voting with your feet/dollar is hardly an option when everyone else in town is doing the same thing. Voting for representatives that will enact legislation to change the situation is still an option.

Voting for representatives that will enact legislation to change the situation is still an option.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is true either. I am probably more politically active than most, in that I will actually contact my representatives about issues I consider important. My representatives have, in some cases, been more tech savvy than most as well. And yet still there is little real change in technical fields, because the overwhelming majority of politicians are not aware of the real issues and implications and the briefings they get come from the very big businesses who stand to gain the most from additional laws and variations on the theme of regulatory capture. If the only people running in an election are all like that, who do you vote for if you want something else?

I see a few plausible ways to improve the situation. Firstly, voting with our wallets works if and when there are better alternatives available, and sadly is often far more flexible, far more effective and far more quickly effective than voting in an election.

Secondly, if we can raise the issues to a high enough level of public awareness that they start to become politically relevant, then the politicians will start caring enough to get better briefings and explore more points of view. The danger with this one is that with technology issues, people often only start to care when something significant and bad happens to them personally or to someone close to them, and it may be far too late to fix the underlying problems by then.

One of the possibilities I find most interesting is that in the current political climate in the West, the established political classes are deeply unpopular, and in some cases rival movements are picking up serious interest even if they're a little bit crazy just because they're not the old guard. This also leaves the door open for much more savvy people to enter politics who might never have considered doing so before, and if even a few people who care deeply about some of these issues manage to get into power within national governments, we could start to see some real change.

And of course, there is always the option that many people will take in real life: ignore the restrictions/laws and get away with it. I don't like this one at all personally, because it means those who work within the system are always losing out to those willing to break the rules, but there's no point denying the reality. For example, what are Tesla really going to do to someone who violates this rule? If they start routinely breaking the cars somehow then they're going to face an existential threat to their brand. If they sue the customer, there's a fair chance that they will lose after their terms are found to violate consumer protection laws in enough jurisdictions to kill their whole strategy.

The sad thing is that the final option is often "good enough" for enough people that we don't build enough momentum to push for the other better ones, so the law-abiding but better-wanting citizens lose out as usual.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#55

How would this work? "Dear Customer - your usage patterns shows that you are using your car for ride sharing revenue. Please stop it." "Dear Customer - Second warning." "Dear Customer - we have disabled important safety updates for your car, because it looks like you are ride sharing for profit. You might be a real estate agent with irregular driving patterns for legitimate reasons but we cannot confirm that. Sucks t…

Five years from now Tesla customers will be confused about whether it was Tesla that locked their car for "using it without permission" or some car ransomware (which no doubt will be a problem by then for all "smart cars"). Because I imagine they'll look pretty similar.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#56
post #53

Wow. Key statement here: " but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year." Tesla Network? Uber/Lyft competitor? Plus I sure hope this won't hold up in court. I do not want a company telling me how to use my product that I paid for.

> I do not want a company telling me how to use my product that I paid for. I'm not defending Tesla here, I just want to draw an analogy. You can't go a store, buy a DVD for $15 and then charge tickets to project to an audience. You need a different, more expensive license for that. The same applies to music and software, even if it is embedded firmware in a car.

> You can't go a store, buy a DVD for $15 and then charge tickets to project to an audience.

Maybe this model is actually bad because it circumvents the first sale doctrine, and we need to make this kind of restriction one illegal (haha, in my dreams).

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#57

The erosion of the concept of "ownership" continues. Traditionally, goods are subject to the first sale doctrine--once I buy a shirt, it's my property, and if I want to sell or rent it, I can. It's mine. But software is licensed. When I buy a piece of software, I'm actually paying for a limited and revokable right to use someone else's property. And now companies are putting software into more and more goods. As soft…

[deleted]

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#58

The erosion of the concept of "ownership" continues. Traditionally, goods are subject to the first sale doctrine--once I buy a shirt, it's my property, and if I want to sell or rent it, I can. It's mine. But software is licensed. When I buy a piece of software, I'm actually paying for a limited and revokable right to use someone else's property. And now companies are putting software into more and more goods. As soft…

I agree, but

How do we handle software ownership? If I sell you a piece of software that you now own, you can go and resell copies of that software to whoever you want. What is the best way to handle that?

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#60
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not "buying" a Tesla anymore just like you aren't "buying" an iPhone anymore. Thus it is not "yours", and you can't do anything you want with it.

It's starting to get out of hand. I purchased a Toyota last year and magically get updates and phone calls about scheduling maintenance. This means the car is sending data to the mothership without anyone realizing it. They have all your driving habits and likely share it with however they want. You can't stop it and most people don't realize it is even happening.

> I purchased a Toyota last year and magically get updates and phone calls about scheduling maintenance. This means the car is sending data to the mothership without anyone realizing it.

No, it doesn't, at least not necessarily.

I also bought a Toyota last year. They called on a regular timed schedule that had nothing to do with my actual usage pattern. We got a call to come in for our 5,000 mile service when we'd just completed the 10,000 mile service.

It may be a feature of the higher-end models, but it's definitely not something the 2015/2016 Corollas seem to do.

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