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Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

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Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#51

Post by YZF »

M_Grey wrote: post #39
baldfat wrote: post #6

I think we teach Calculus wrong in a deep fundamental way. We should incorporate more high math concepts earlier into education BUT people are always afraid of anything past 4th grade math! "A minority of students then wend their way through geometry, trigonometry and, finally, calculus, which is considered the pinnacle of high-school-level math. But this progression actually “has nothing to do with how people think,…

We should teach early calculus along with entry-level SR/GTR instead of rehashed Newtonian crap. Unite math and physics for a while, and kids might actually see the point of it.

Exactly. Physics becomes so much simpler with calculus. Once you realize e.g. the relationship between position, velocity and acceleration you don't need to memorize 20 different equations for all the different flavours of problems that are basically down to integrating or differentiating ...

Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#52

Post by spike021 »

YZF wrote: post #51
M_Grey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should teach early calculus along with entry-level SR/GTR instead of rehashed Newtonian crap. Unite math and physics for a while, and kids might actually see the point of it.

Exactly. Physics becomes so much simpler with calculus. Once you realize e.g. the relationship between position, velocity and acceleration you don't need to memorize 20 different equations for all the different flavours of problems that are basically down to integrating or differentiating ...

But "you need to learn the hard way everybody else did it before X formula/equation was developed!"

I agree it's nice to know the logic and background that is the foundation of how we got _here_, but sometimes the older details aren't really as important and take away time from students learning the modern, more useful techniques and concepts.

One of the big things about kids and math these days is that you have less and less of their attention. If they see it's getting too hard, most don't take the challenge and they just put less effort in.

Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#53

Post by Oletros »

euroclydon wrote: post #26

I have a 5th and a 6th grader. I'm going to buy them an educational copy of Maple soon, so they can have a beautiful platform to plot 2-D and 3-D graphs, solve equations, do derivatives and integrals, and factor algebraic expressions. I want them to do all this in high school, whether or not they take Calculus, so they can get an intuition for it. Then they can memorize the trig rules in college.

AS an Spanish not knowing the US education system, at what age one kid goes to 5th grade?

Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#54

Post by spike021 »

castratikron wrote: post #10

AP Calculus was the most useful course I took in high school. It was rigorous, and I scored high enough on the exam to get two free college classes and start freshman year at the sophomore level, which left room at the end of my college career for more specialized courses. There should be some vetting process for the students who want to take AP classes. A lot of the students in my AP Calculus class had no business b…

>another guy just put his head down on the desk during the AP exam

That's too bad. Either his parents were paying the cost of the test (I think $86 per test when I was in school) or he was getting a paid-for test from some scholarship or another.

Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#55

Post by jessriedel »

gnarbarian wrote: post #22
jessriedel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tuition only covers a portion of a student's cost to a university. I think it's around 30% at mine. Where are you getting that from? Are you just dividing the tuition revenue by the university's budget? Because the university is there for a lot more than educating undergrads.

Most universities aren't primarily focused on research.[1] They are there to educate students. Research does occur at every university, but looking at their research budget as a fraction of their whole budget will show what sort of institution it is. Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Clas…

> Most universities aren't primarily focused on research.

Where are you getting "many" (rather than "some")? The page you link to discusses colleges in addition to universities, and it's well known that colleges exist primarily to educate students.

> Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities.

Where is that numbers coming form?

Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#56

Post by baldfat »

CalChris wrote: post #9
baldfat wrote: post #6

I think we teach Calculus wrong in a deep fundamental way. We should incorporate more high math concepts earlier into education BUT people are always afraid of anything past 4th grade math! "A minority of students then wend their way through geometry, trigonometry and, finally, calculus, which is considered the pinnacle of high-school-level math. But this progression actually “has nothing to do with how people think,…

Berkeley EECS grad. I didn't go the device physics route but I used calculus about twice in 4 years except in physics classes.

The beauty of calculus is that you actually understand the Real World.

For example I taught my daughter factions this way.

Me: "These factions you see them? Now see these decimal points?"

Her: "Yeah I hate factions they are stupid!"

Me: "Factions are the only consistently real numbers below 1 and decimal points for the most part are made up numbers. 1/3 is 1/3 and never .3333."

Her: "I always thought it was the otehr way around."

Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#57

Post by euroclydon »

Oletros wrote: post #53
euroclydon wrote: post #26

I have a 5th and a 6th grader. I'm going to buy them an educational copy of Maple soon, so they can have a beautiful platform to plot 2-D and 3-D graphs, solve equations, do derivatives and integrals, and factor algebraic expressions. I want them to do all this in high school, whether or not they take Calculus, so they can get an intuition for it. Then they can memorize the trig rules in college.

AS an Spanish not knowing the US education system, at what age one kid goes to 5th grade?

My 5th grader is currently 10 years old.

Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#58

Post by gnarbarian »

jessriedel wrote: post #55
gnarbarian wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most universities aren't primarily focused on research.[1] They are there to educate students. Research does occur at every university, but looking at their research budget as a fraction of their whole budget will show what sort of institution it is. Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Clas…

> Most universities aren't primarily focused on research. Where are you getting "many" (rather than "some")? The page you link to discusses colleges in addition to universities, and it's well known that colleges exist primarily to educate students. > Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities. Where is that numbers coming form?

Sorry here is a better source: https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75

Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#59

Post by sokoloff »

dboreham wrote: post #36
kj01a wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>BUT people are always afraid of anything past 4th grade math! Then the solution is simple! We teach calculus to 3rd graders, then no one will be afraid of it! But seriously, I agree that calculus is taught way to late. I wasn't introduce to calculus until college, and if I had been even by senior year of high school, I would probably be a mathematician right now.

In the US, problem #1 is that it is very hard to find people who understand Mathematics sufficiently well to teach it effectively, who are willing to work for the salary typically paid to a teacher. For example, my 8th grader is being taught "Higher School Algebra" by a teacher who last year taught 5th grade and by all accounts has to leave the classroom often to get tips on the material from the 7th grade math teach…

Spot on. Both of my parents were high school math teachers (for most of their career). They essentially forbade me from going into public education, which is what I thought I wanted to do when I was in high school.

Boy, am I ever glad!

I am much more financially comfortable, enjoy the hell out of my job, and don't have to deal with the annoyances and politics of being a high school teacher. Would I be technically capable? Absolutely. Would I be good [enough] at it? Probably. Would I do it for a mid (or even high) five-figure sum, even with the good retirement package? Not on your life...

Re: Do the math: too much calculus? (2012)

#60

Post by drakonandor »

jessriedel wrote: post #55
gnarbarian wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most universities aren't primarily focused on research.[1] They are there to educate students. Research does occur at every university, but looking at their research budget as a fraction of their whole budget will show what sort of institution it is. Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Clas…

> Most universities aren't primarily focused on research. Where are you getting "many" (rather than "some")? The page you link to discusses colleges in addition to universities, and it's well known that colleges exist primarily to educate students. > Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities. Where is that numbers coming form?

Universities are composed of colleges in USA. You seem to have more of a 'Canadian' definition, where college means something like "community college" in USA.
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