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Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#51

Post by tptacek »

divbyzer0 wrote: post #41
bduerst wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not sure if Guccifer 2.0 is one person or a hacking group. Many independent security firms have said it's associated with two Russian intelligence agencies.

Good point. I'm just not sure Russia would perform potentially delicate operations from an EU and NATO member state. Also, not sure if all of this recent hacking is in fact leaking by persons within affected organisations. In the case of the DNC hack, I think it quite plausible to be a disgruntled employee.

We don't know that he performed operations from the Czech Republic, or if he was just apprehended there on vacation.

Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#52

Post by dragonwriter »

usaphp wrote: post #40
ceejayoz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do you get those check marks from? Do you want to dispute any of them? Do you believe the Czech Republic isn't an EU/NATO member, as asserted with the "check"s?

These check marks have a meaning only if they have a proof that he is guilty and is subject to extradition, otherwise they don't mean anything in this context

One is generally subject to extradition if they are charged with an offense covered by an extradition treaty (there are often procedural details here, but IIRC they generally don't extend much beyond verifying that there is a minimally plausible basis for the charges, similar to a preliminary hearing.)

Guilt or innocence is determined at trial after extradition; guilt isn't a question to be resolved to determine whether one is a subject to extradition.

Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#53

Post by csydas »

tptacek wrote: post #46
usaphp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These check marks have a meaning only if they have a proof that he is guilty and is subject to extradition, otherwise they don't mean anything in this context

You're getting downvoted like crazy, but I really think you're just making a simple mistake in interpretation. You seem to think extradition occurs after trial, so that the convicted accused serve their sentence somewhere else. No, that's not how extradition works. The accused is extradited to face trial somewhere else.

I don't think it's so much a mistake as a disagreement with the process of extradition. Government wants person so they can abridge their freedom from across the globe to satisfy the government's belief that they have the right person.

It's understood the trial ultimately determines the person's fate but it does seem like more proof or evidence should be made public before taking a rather rather drastic action like this. They don't have to show their whole hand, but something that is convincing enough that they have the right guy.

Again completely Realize that's not how extradition works it's just it does seem like a raw deal that flies in the face of the U.S. Justice system ideals

Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#54

Post by konart »

qaq wrote: post #47
yedpodtrzitko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, our (Czech) president is a big friend with Russia/China etc., he actively pulls strings in the background, so I wouldnt be surprised if this scenario would magically happen, somehow.

How is this possible after 1968? This world is strange.

Strange question. People are friends with Germany, no? Japan has good relationships with the US etc.

Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#55

Post by lmm »

tptacek wrote: post #45
CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, and that is exactly the point at which it becomes an international politics issue.

I'm not following. Extradition has been an international norm since before the US even existed. We signed our first extradition treaty in the 1700s.

Extradition to a country the defendant never went to seems like a new thing, no?

Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#56

Post by mercurysmessage »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #2

No word on who was arrested or who their victims were. All we have to confirm the story is political posturing from two global superpowers over an arrest in a third country. This sounds like the opening act of a cold war era political struggle. War by proxy, etc. Can we please not repeat that chapter in history? Or, if we're going to do so, at least not use hackers as the pawns in this sick game? I'd appreciate at le…

It's the new frontier of warfare and espionage. Like it or not these tactics are here to stay.

Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#57

Post by tptacek »

lmm wrote: post #55
tptacek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not following. Extradition has been an international norm since before the US even existed. We signed our first extradition treaty in the 1700s.

Extradition to a country the defendant never went to seems like a new thing, no?

No, that is also not a new thing. Marcel Lazăr Lahel, for instance, was arrested in and extradited from Romania. I'm sure we can find more examples.

What might be new-ish (last 30 years) are crimes you can commit against a foreign state without setting foot on their soil. But I doubt computer crimes set the precedent there; I'm guessing if we look, we'll find some financial crime, or some organized crime, that took place in the middle of the 20th century and created the same fact pattern.

Remember as well that the US isn't the only country that extradites people, so we'll probably have a lot of data to look through for examples!

Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#58

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #3

Czech Republic a member of European Union: Check! Czech Republic a NATO Ally: Check! Computer Crime Illegal In Czech Republic by Czech Law: Check! Computer Crime Illegal In European Union: Check! Bilateral Extradition Treaty Present Between US and Czech Republic: Check! European Union Recognizes Validity Of Bilateral Extradition Treaties With The US: Check! I am not clear on the basis of Russia's expectation that the…

[deleted]

Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#59

Post by tptacek »

csydas wrote: post #53
tptacek wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting downvoted like crazy, but I really think you're just making a simple mistake in interpretation. You seem to think extradition occurs after trial, so that the convicted accused serve their sentence somewhere else. No, that's not how extradition works. The accused is extradited to face trial somewhere else.

I don't think it's so much a mistake as a disagreement with the process of extradition. Government wants person so they can abridge their freedom from across the globe to satisfy the government's belief that they have the right person. It's understood the trial ultimately determines the person's fate but it does seem like more proof or evidence should be made public before taking a rather rather drastic action like t…

In most of the cases we've seen with extraditions to the US for hacking, the burden placed on the US to justify the extradition has been pretty significant. We have in fact lost extradition cases where few of the underlying facts were in doubt.

I'm also not sure how bringing suspects to trial in the US flies in the face of US justice system ideals.

Re: Russian Hacker, Wanted by F.B.I., Is Arrested in Prague, Czechs Say

#60

Post by csydas »

tptacek wrote: post #59
csydas wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's so much a mistake as a disagreement with the process of extradition. Government wants person so they can abridge their freedom from across the globe to satisfy the government's belief that they have the right person. It's understood the trial ultimately determines the person's fate but it does seem like more proof or evidence should be made public before taking a rather rather drastic action like t…

In most of the cases we've seen with extraditions to the US for hacking, the burden placed on the US to justify the extradition has been pretty significant. We have in fact lost extradition cases where few of the underlying facts were in doubt. I'm also not sure how bringing suspects to trial in the US flies in the face of US justice system ideals.

Well in this instance I'm suggesting that the uprooting and deprivation of freedom using foreign law as a basis is unreasonable. I fully admit this is a lay person interpretation and the law likely disagrees, but I would imagine that a more fair process would first let an international court or the local governing body determine in full if they cooperate, not instead have a blanket extradition treaty. Unless I am misunderstanding the entirety of extradition treaties, it just seems the burden of proof that they have the right person to even start questioning is low and not subject to scrutiny except from within.
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