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Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

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Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#21

Post by msravi »

mcv wrote: post #19
msravi wrote: post #2

It's somewhat surprising to me that the "block editor" thing is so popular in these beginner kits. My son (almost 11) was introduced to it at school[1] and did not find it intuitive at all. We then got an Arduino and started to write some simple programs, and he took to it right off the bat. The Arduino programming platform is simple enough to get a 10-year old started off and scales so well to "professional" project…

I think 11 is already too late for those blocks. I did some lessons with Blockly [0] in my son's class last years (kids of 6 and 7), and that worked fine for the oldest/smartest kids, though it was still a bit too hard for some. I plan to do it again this year (ages 7-9) to see how that goes. But after that, I think it's time for some Ruby or Python. I did Basic at that age. [0] https://blockly-games.appspot.com/

I don't have a source, but my guess is that it's much more intuitive for kids to program in an imperative style rather than anything else. So provided that the base API that you provide them is not too complicated, my guess is that even kids in the 7-9 age bracket will "get" a programming style that goes turn_right(), forward(10), turn_left(), stop(), rather than the block editing.

Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#22

Post by rmc »

msravi wrote: post #2

It's somewhat surprising to me that the "block editor" thing is so popular in these beginner kits. My son (almost 11) was introduced to it at school[1] and did not find it intuitive at all. We then got an Arduino and started to write some simple programs, and he took to it right off the bat. The Arduino programming platform is simple enough to get a 10-year old started off and scales so well to "professional" project…

What about 5 year olds? Lots of them have trouble typing in properly.

Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#23

Post by tehbeard »

willvarfar wrote: post #12
msravi wrote: post #2

It's somewhat surprising to me that the "block editor" thing is so popular in these beginner kits. My son (almost 11) was introduced to it at school[1] and did not find it intuitive at all. We then got an Arduino and started to write some simple programs, and he took to it right off the bat. The Arduino programming platform is simple enough to get a 10-year old started off and scales so well to "professional" project…

There are two things to untangle here: 1) Yes, agree that "blocks" editors are not terribly useful. I brought an Arduino redbot for my daughters (10 and 8) and after a couple of failed attempts at scratch-like programming, they actually found the C code immediately easier. This is so unintuitive! Ideas? 2) that the micro:bit is worse than the arduino; I don't think block programming or sourcecode has any bearing on t…

> This is so unintuitive! Ideas?

Are they strong readers? Code as a narrative of what happens might be easier to grok for them than blocks which can have a spatial component to how they proved.

Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#24

Post by mhd »

Interesting. As the article says, Germany really has to play catchup here, as there's no culture comparable to the UK education system here (we had no equivalent to the BBC Micro, for example).

Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#25

Post by timthorn »

rmc wrote: post #22
msravi wrote: post #2

It's somewhat surprising to me that the "block editor" thing is so popular in these beginner kits. My son (almost 11) was introduced to it at school[1] and did not find it intuitive at all. We then got an Arduino and started to write some simple programs, and he took to it right off the bat. The Arduino programming platform is simple enough to get a 10-year old started off and scales so well to "professional" project…

What about 5 year olds? Lots of them have trouble typing in properly.

They did fine with the ZX Spectrum, where keywords autocompleted on a single keypress (eg, at a point where it was valid, pressing p got "PRINT" or j got "LOAD"). Every key had legends showing what it would produce. Great for a 5 year old who could read but not spell.

Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#26

Post by willvarfar »

tehbeard wrote: post #23
willvarfar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two things to untangle here: 1) Yes, agree that "blocks" editors are not terribly useful. I brought an Arduino redbot for my daughters (10 and 8) and after a couple of failed attempts at scratch-like programming, they actually found the C code immediately easier. This is so unintuitive! Ideas? 2) that the micro:bit is worse than the arduino; I don't think block programming or sourcecode has any bearing on t…

> This is so unintuitive! Ideas? Are they strong readers? Code as a narrative of what happens might be easier to grok for them than blocks which can have a spatial component to how they proved.

No, they are not even native English speakers :)

They started pointing and clicking on computers before they learned to read anyway: http://williamedwardscoder.tumblr.com/post/19500788060/my-te...

That was several years ago, and the intervening years they unlearned everything by focusing on the ipad youtube :(

Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#27

Post by mcv »

msravi wrote: post #21
mcv wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think 11 is already too late for those blocks. I did some lessons with Blockly [0] in my son's class last years (kids of 6 and 7), and that worked fine for the oldest/smartest kids, though it was still a bit too hard for some. I plan to do it again this year (ages 7-9) to see how that goes. But after that, I think it's time for some Ruby or Python. I did Basic at that age. [0] https://blockly-games.appspot.com/

I don't have a source, but my guess is that it's much more intuitive for kids to program in an imperative style rather than anything else. So provided that the base API that you provide them is not too complicated, my guess is that even kids in the 7-9 age bracket will "get" a programming style that goes turn_right(), forward(10), turn_left(), stop(), rather than the block editing.

Blockly actually gives the code resulting from your block program.

I think block editors work fine in a very simple situation where you have a very limited set of primitives you can use, like in the blockly exercises. I think Scratch already has way too many options to get lost in. At some point, typing becomes easier than searching through several lists of blocks.

Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#28

Post by ntoll »

kriro wrote: post #11

I saw a micro:bit keynote at a big conference somewhat recently. Overall I have to say I'm not all that impressed with the strategic decisions. There were some reasons for rolling their own but they could have partnered with existing alternatives (the keynote struck me as a tad bit too "nationalistic" for lack of a better word...basically "we must do it ourselves because...REMEMBER ACORN GLORY DAYS"). Now it seems Ge…

Hi,

It was probably me you saw keynoting - perhaps at this year's EuroPython? I'm one of the volunteers behind the MicroPython related work for the micro:bit.

Sorry you thought I was nationalistic. That's completely the opposite to my intention. :-(

To set the record straight, my point about the Acorn BBC micro was only:

1) The BBC already have done something like this before and have "form", resources and reach in this respect. 2) The BBC micro gave the 8yo me the sense of wonder and excitement in computing that inspired me to become a programmer.

These points have absolutely nothing to do with the decision of the BBC to create the micro:bit project.

They wanted a device that wasn't as complicated as a Pi but that also contained enough hardware to be a compelling "device for thinking" as Seymour Papert would put it. A huge amount of research, development and testing that went into working out how the device should function. It certainly wasn't a case of NIH - we were painfully aware of the danger of wheel reinvention. That the BBC is a UK based organisation is completely beside the point. In fact, all the Python related work was done by an international group of volunteers - reflecting the Python community's diversity and something I want to celebrate. Furthermore, the team who did the Microsoft related work are Seattle based.

Personally, I think it wonderful there is a German team working on an alternative. I'm also hopeful they'll be a lot more open about the hardware - the BBC have been dragging their feet in this respect although I know they intend to eventually open source hardware schematics.

Let many flowers bloom!

The important thing is kids get exposure to platforms that help them realise that programming is something that'll help them do valuable stuff. This isn't just about creating a new generation of engineers; Rather, I'll know we've succeeded if in fifteen years I meet doctors, teachers, artists, musicians, lawyers, civil servants and other professionals who are computer literate enough to know how to effectively explore and make use of such technology.

David Allen, the producer involved with the original BBC micro from the 1980s, said it best: "The aim was to democratise computing. We didn't want people to be controlled by it, but to control it."

This isn't nostalgia for the Acorn "good old days" - it's a sentiment that's just as valid today as it was back in the 1980s.

I look forward to seeing how kids get on with all such devices. :-)

Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#29

Post by foobarian »

mcv wrote: post #19
msravi wrote: post #2

It's somewhat surprising to me that the "block editor" thing is so popular in these beginner kits. My son (almost 11) was introduced to it at school[1] and did not find it intuitive at all. We then got an Arduino and started to write some simple programs, and he took to it right off the bat. The Arduino programming platform is simple enough to get a 10-year old started off and scales so well to "professional" project…

I think 11 is already too late for those blocks. I did some lessons with Blockly [0] in my son's class last years (kids of 6 and 7), and that worked fine for the oldest/smartest kids, though it was still a bit too hard for some. I plan to do it again this year (ages 7-9) to see how that goes. But after that, I think it's time for some Ruby or Python. I did Basic at that age. [0] https://blockly-games.appspot.com/

You know, what way is there today to get the simple experience of a C64 or a ZX spectrum? Several things there:

- Instant on with a high level language interpreter

- Simple architecture/ISA one can grow into

- Maybe a monitor/assembler available from the interpreter

- Powerful graphics, with simple things possible from the language, and full power available from machine code

This would be perfect for around 8-10 year old. I can't tell if I'm underestimating kids but it feels like starting with a Linux or comparable modern OS/machine just has too many layers of abstraction to get that "cozy" feeling of a micro.

Re: Germans React to UK’s micro:bit

#30

Post by ntoll »

linker3000 wrote: post #8
msravi wrote: post #2

It's somewhat surprising to me that the "block editor" thing is so popular in these beginner kits. My son (almost 11) was introduced to it at school[1] and did not find it intuitive at all. We then got an Arduino and started to write some simple programs, and he took to it right off the bat. The Arduino programming platform is simple enough to get a 10-year old started off and scales so well to "professional" project…

Yeah, the block editor is a quick win for younger children, but it's not good for teaching more realistic approaches to 'proper' coding; heading the Java or MicroPython route seems to be more suitable and engaging for older pupils. The guys who ported MicroPython to the micro:bit have done a great job but, regrettably, by the time the MicroPython framework has been loaded on the micro:bit, the amount of room left for…

Your script can be up to 8k in length. You have 16k RAM to play with.

Obviously, this is a very constrained device and just getting a full re-implementation of Python 3 (sans standard library) is testament to Damien George's engineering brilliance.

There's still lots of work to be done and efficiencies to be made. This is only but the start of the project.

There are some quite interesting / complicated examples in the source code:

https://github.com/bbcmicrobit/micropython/tree/master/examp...

Hope this helps!

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