Live data from Hacker News

What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

politico.com

71–80 of 170 posts

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#71
A few thoughts and references.

Hamilton Holt: A 1909 account, "Commercialism and Journalism", describes something of the inverse of our current dilemma: how the press would establish its independence given the tremendous boom in advertising, and advertisers who Had Money and Had an Interest in What Was or Wasn't Published. Holt's account starts with a statistical overview of the previous half-century of the industry and the growing role of advertising (a new phenomenon, at least at that scale, in 1909). It's quite revealing.

https://archive.org/details/commercialismjou00holtuoft

I.F. "Izzy" Stone, speaking in 1974, is commenting at the zenith of the power of major city and national dailies. The Washington Post and The New York Times had just toppled a President of the United States. Stone credits the broad scope (a point Holt had made) of major city papers as giving them a great deal of independence -- local and small-city papers had no such advantages. Advertising remained a huge influence on the press.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qV3gO3zxQ1g

Chomsky, Mander, and Postman: Three among many critics of the modern press, both print and broadcast. If you're not familiar with them, read.

Tronc: I've been spending time in the Chicago area, and have had the experience of reading what's left of the Chicago Tribune. John Oliver's criticisms were very well deserved. We're currently in Sportsball Season, which means that the front page, front section, editorial page, business section (mostly obituaries, with the added bonus of a list of recently dead people on the back pages), real estate, and entertainment sections, as well as the sports section, are covering the Cubs, Bears, Bulls, and/or Blackhawks.

Actual news is limited to a one page "Nation & World" and "News Briefing" page. Columnists largely discuss their gardens.

Every month or two there's a piece of accidental good journalism. Often a historical review (one in particular was the obit of a former Trib reporter).

The Monday paper is little more than a paste-up of solicited filler.

The simple truth is that the Trib doesn't cover news of significanc, covers its own backyard poorly, expresses the schizoid remnants of its Republic Party Paper tradition (though the paper's been notably less straight-ticket of late), and has taken unpardonable positions as regards free speech and the press, most notably its editorial against a pardon for Edward Snowden.

I find far more informative, useful, and relevant content online. Mostly I simply ignore the current news -- I'm poking around the Internet Archive's early 20th century, or 19th or 18th century collections. Or I'm digging into primary sources, largely academic and journal articles or books (and those often via Sci-Hub or LibGen).

I'm also coming to believe strongly that the "news is bad for you" view has strong merits. I'm not completely shut out (and am much less so than the typical person), but I absolutely refuse to let my information sources be ruled by commercial interests, shock and awe, outrage, or irrelevance.

Where the news media have misstepped most severely is in trying to serve entertainment rather than information. This affects not only what's left of newspapers, or magazines (I saw Time Magazine for the first time in years and felt like I'd just run into a friend in the end stages of cancer: gaunt, dull, no substance, and all signs pointing to a rapidly fading life-force): they've gutted themselves of any meaningful content. There are exceptions, including upstart and principled media: The Guardian does well. The Economist and Financial Times are generally strong. The Wall Street Journal, though cheap and slanted, remains a strikingly better paper than Tronc, er, the Trib. I've been impressed by online ventures, including The Intercept, Pro Publica, and a few others, though the outrage engines, even those nominally from viewpoints I agree with, are tiresome.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/apr/12/news-is-bad-ro...

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#73
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sacrificing the ideals of journalism sounds like a bad deal for democracy. But then again, if people would rather be entertained by whatever is in their filter bubble for five minutes, than be challenged, I guess that's the kind of news world we get.

I remember my print edition, it was mostly schlock, but every now and then they would do some real investigative local reporting, and that was invaluable. No local source has broken a major, deep, sprawling complex story in years, they're basically just bloggers now, they've got a handful of daily beats they cover, and they don't go much deeper than that. Powerful local organizations operate unchecked.

This. Local (non-sports) news in my paper is mostly city council stuff and the police blotter. A particularly salacious crime gets a few extra column inches.

Other than that, the paper is wire stories and advertisements.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#74
Advertising left the newspapers.

Look for example at used car ads. Sellers had a choice between paying the newspaper to run your two-line car ad for a few days for $20 or post it free to craigslist where you can attach photos, a lengthy description, etc.

And once sellers started posting there, buyers stopped looking in the paper for used cars.

I know a used car dealer that continued to run print ads in the newspaper for a while — but only for "old man cars" like Buick sedans, etc.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#75

> if a newspaper company wanted to make a real splash on the Web, it would be better off inventing an original website—the next Business Insider or BuzzFeed—and not remodel its newspaper copy. I have to disagree with Chyi here—"create the next BuzzFeed" is not a strategy; it's extremely hard, competitive and they don't have the skills to even attempt it. That said, I think there's a strong argument for having never p…

The problem with paywalling the news is 1) news can not be copyrighted. You can keep people from copying your story word-for-word, but you can't keep them from repeating the news in different words and 2) nobody will ever see your news because it doesn't show up on Google. You have a chicken and egg problem - without subscribers you won't get a reputation for a quality product, but if you paywall everything nobody will know you exist.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#76

I think the problem is a simple assumption - people will leave the print version of My Local Journal and go to mylocaljournal.com when in fact they go from My Local Journal to Buzzfeed or the Yahoo! homepage or Google News or Twitter or Facebook or RSS of their 10 favorite blogs etc... For example, I don't have a newspaper. I also don't check the local newspaper website. My wife, friends, relatives don't seem to eith…

> So, is all of that news necessary or important to our lives? As it turns out, no.

Or not yet, anyway.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#77
post #75

> if a newspaper company wanted to make a real splash on the Web, it would be better off inventing an original website—the next Business Insider or BuzzFeed—and not remodel its newspaper copy. I have to disagree with Chyi here—"create the next BuzzFeed" is not a strategy; it's extremely hard, competitive and they don't have the skills to even attempt it. That said, I think there's a strong argument for having never p…

The problem with paywalling the news is 1) news can not be copyrighted. You can keep people from copying your story word-for-word, but you can't keep them from repeating the news in different words and 2) nobody will ever see your news because it doesn't show up on Google. You have a chicken and egg problem - without subscribers you won't get a reputation for a quality product, but if you paywall everything nobody wi…

But according to the article 82% of revenue still comes from the print edition, so it's not a chicken or egg problem it's a lose-lose. That's why I'm suggesting a strategy where you maintain the perceived value of the print content could be more successful long-term.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#78

As an-ex journalist who recently left the industry to become a programmer, I'd say one of the issues is the short-sightedness of senior management. When I started teaching myself to code last year, I told my editor as well as a couple of other senior staff members (including the chief exec) about my ambitions to combine coding and journalism. My editor was all for it but there was little she could do besides telling…

Yes I agree with your last point. You could package up apps, community, meetups, tutorials, shopping and content around a particular niche. People are much more used to paying to support their hobbies and interests. It would be a premium product that people actually want to buy.

I think the magazine and tv industry are much closer to this than newspapers. Just look at some of the BBC titles that have TV, web, magazines and even live shows.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#79
post #10

The conclusion that a drop in readership is proof that moving to the web was a mistake is extraordinarily shallow. "Readers continue to leave print newspapers, but they’re not migrating to the online editions." Because they have more options. Print products were often monopolies, especially in the early to mid 90s, a hey day for newspapers. There was often a single publication per DMA. What happened then is newspaper…

My plumber isn't allowed to call himself a plumber unless he follows the rules for plumbing. Same for my accountant, doctor, electrician, and lock pick.

I get the "free speech" argument, but I still cannot understand why we don't have rules about who can and cannot call themselves a journalist.

Coming up with these rules might be tricky, but shouldn't we try? Or have we and I'm just uninformed?

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#80
post #10

The conclusion that a drop in readership is proof that moving to the web was a mistake is extraordinarily shallow. "Readers continue to leave print newspapers, but they’re not migrating to the online editions." Because they have more options. Print products were often monopolies, especially in the early to mid 90s, a hey day for newspapers. There was often a single publication per DMA. What happened then is newspaper…

Sacrificing the ideals of journalism sounds like a bad deal for democracy. But then again, if people would rather be entertained by whatever is in their filter bubble for five minutes, than be challenged, I guess that's the kind of news world we get.

Now I'm curious. Are we actually measuring how well people are informed in general? Is informedness declining? That would be interesting, since the web is supposed to bring us information, not take it away.
Post reply on HN