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The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

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Re: The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

#41

Post by inimino »

radioact1ve wrote: post #37
inimino wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that people can contribute is great, the fact that it is impossible to get started in modern JS development without making dozens of seemingly inscrutable choices is not.

Exactly this. All of the upfront choices, will I make the right choice? I've been meaning to jump in and learn. After years of backend development (C#, Python, and some Go), I want to give JS a shot and at least experiment. It's a daunting process that I keep pushing back as there is no immediate need.

The best thing to remember is that if you're doing it for fun and learning, you don't need anything but a plain old HTML5 and a plain old script tag. Once you feel you need something more than that for a particular project (or for work) you'll be better able to evaluate what's out there.

  
  // get started!

Re: The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

#42

Post by wrecursion »

omegote wrote: post #9
kowdermeister wrote: post #6

I don't see the need for this to cherry pick a few project and push them with the Linux brand. The JS landscape is fragmented for a good reason and I don't see that as problem in fact, rather as a feature. With NPM and YARN we already have a good enough package management system and their platform can help me evaluate if a package is community supported enough. I'm talking about the stats that I can just check: numbe…

How can you find the js fragmentation a feature and not a stinking pile of shit? Seriously.

I see it both as one of JS's greatest strengths, and greatest weakness's.

Certainly, at a prototyping/exploratory level, all of the freedom and choices are great!

For me, however, when you just 'need to get sh*t done', all the choices and configuration required to setup a project becomes a nightmare, commonly referred to now days as js fatigue.

I am looking forward to trying out http://www.electrode.io/ on my next project. Other than that, I have been digging into elm as a way to reduce the choices required and the cognitive load involved in setting a project up. It's great to have 'one true way' of doing things.

Re: The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

#43

Post by flueedo »

onion2k wrote: post #15
omegote wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you find the js fragmentation a feature and not a stinking pile of shit? Seriously.

There are two schools of thought. The first is that you should optimise for the platform you're targeting, so a fragmented JS world is a good thing because you optimise for different things depending on where your code is going to run. The second school of thought is that you should optimise for development, and you should have the same language everywhere even if that means slightly less efficient code. For example,…

Yep, and, not that having to learn and become acquainted with shortcomings of new sets of languages/tools every other year isn't a fact of life for many devs that one ought to just accept. But having something run just (or as close as possible to) the same across many platforms make it more likely that that knowledge you acquired will remain among your best options when approaching a wide range of problems for a longer time.

Re: The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

#44

Post by _RPM »

kowdermeister wrote: post #6

I don't see the need for this to cherry pick a few project and push them with the Linux brand. The JS landscape is fragmented for a good reason and I don't see that as problem in fact, rather as a feature. With NPM and YARN we already have a good enough package management system and their platform can help me evaluate if a package is community supported enough. I'm talking about the stats that I can just check: numbe…

Yarn is brand new but NPM is not. To you they are equvilent.

Re: The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

#45

Post by Klathmon »

inimino wrote: post #31
kowdermeister wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First the term. By fragmentation I mean two things: 1) we have many libraries doing the same thing. 2) the implementation is JS is not the same in every environment. If you are spending most of your time writing other languages which have a standard library, I can understand your opinion. However, I see fragmentation as: 1) It introduces the opportunity everyone on the planet to give a shot at implementing something…

The fact that people can contribute is great, the fact that it is impossible to get started in modern JS development without making dozens of seemingly inscrutable choices is not.

But that can (and is) solved by either just "picking one of the big ones" and moving on, or by using even more tools layered on top to abstract away a lot of those choices (don't know anything about how to start with react? Just use react-create-app and go from there).

Re: The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

#46

Post by Klathmon »

radioact1ve wrote: post #37
inimino wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that people can contribute is great, the fact that it is impossible to get started in modern JS development without making dozens of seemingly inscrutable choices is not.

Exactly this. All of the upfront choices, will I make the right choice? I've been meaning to jump in and learn. After years of backend development (C#, Python, and some Go), I want to give JS a shot and at least experiment. It's a daunting process that I keep pushing back as there is no immediate need.

Realistically, you won't make the right choice. But that's okay. Because of the number and size of most packages, they are easily replaceable.

Like the commenter higher up said, it's not like C#, Python, or Go where if you have an issue with a library, it could take days to find and implement a replacement. The vast majority of libraries in JS land are small and single purpose. Think of it as replacing the air-filter in your car vs the whole engine.

Re: The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

#47

Post by kowdermeister »

inimino wrote: post #31
kowdermeister wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First the term. By fragmentation I mean two things: 1) we have many libraries doing the same thing. 2) the implementation is JS is not the same in every environment. If you are spending most of your time writing other languages which have a standard library, I can understand your opinion. However, I see fragmentation as: 1) It introduces the opportunity everyone on the planet to give a shot at implementing something…

The fact that people can contribute is great, the fact that it is impossible to get started in modern JS development without making dozens of seemingly inscrutable choices is not.

That's because "modern javascript" is not there yet, it's still in an experimental phase, we need transpilers and other stuff to use features that are not in a finished state. It will get better with time.

Re: The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

#48

Post by languagewars »

kowdermeister wrote: post #6

I don't see the need for this to cherry pick a few project and push them with the Linux brand. The JS landscape is fragmented for a good reason and I don't see that as problem in fact, rather as a feature. With NPM and YARN we already have a good enough package management system and their platform can help me evaluate if a package is community supported enough. I'm talking about the stats that I can just check: numbe…

It seems like it is promoting things that might be expanding JS' reach to other device running the Linux kernel rather than cherry picking projects in the existing common use cases. For example, sponsoring the only node server I've heard of that targets running on mobile devices, and an IoT appropriate interpreter are not like the net zero action of picking a winner among react/angular/ember/etc.

Re: The Linux Foundation Unites the JavaScript Community for Open Web Development

#49

Post by humanrebar »

kowdermeister wrote: post #20
omegote wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you find the js fragmentation a feature and not a stinking pile of shit? Seriously.

First the term. By fragmentation I mean two things: 1) we have many libraries doing the same thing. 2) the implementation is JS is not the same in every environment. If you are spending most of your time writing other languages which have a standard library, I can understand your opinion. However, I see fragmentation as: 1) It introduces the opportunity everyone on the planet to give a shot at implementing something…

> I'm not really experienced in the C++ world, but I guess people would call me crazy if I proposed a new stdio lib.

Some would. But there are plenty of companies and projects with their own standard libraries. There's also serious (but early-stages) discussion within the C++ standards committee about developing an std2.

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