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.NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

piotrgankiewicz.com

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Re: .NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

#251
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that if you don't make them automatic, people won't install them. Microsoft spent most of the Windows XP era with people being bitten by problems which had been patched in many cases years before. The approach they've taken of making things mandatory is clearly not universally popular but most of the arguments about it tend to ignore the fact that it was designed to solve a very real problem which affe…

And yet macos doesn't have forced updates. They just prompt the user (with a very in-your-face message) and people DO update. Same with linux. Same with android. Same with IOS. If you prompt the user to update, they generally will.

That's technically true but not true in real life for most people. Yes, you can ignore the notice for awhile but fairly soon you'll reach the point where something like iTunes requires a newer release or you need to upgrade iOS/Android because an app developer made the business decision that using a new API offers more benefits than supporting legacy devices.

There are two reasons why this works out better. One is that the non-Microsoft world isn't dominated by enterprise IT departments demanding binary compatibility with antique code; the second is that those platforms have spent many years building trust that major upgrades won't prevent you from working. In the case of Windows, that was complicated by charging for updates and the broken IT culture which resisted them amplified with the rough Windows Vista release cycle causing many people to avoid it for a decade.

Re: .NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further, if you are doing a bunch of administrative tasks from the CLI, sudo will keep you authenticated. If you really want, you could even open up a root shell. I think the real problem is that the Right Way(tm) to do things is completely non obvious to a linux novice. Looking back on my times starting out with linux (ubuntu 6.06), I remember a lot of similar frustrations. Really, there is no middle ground, you are…

> If you really want, you could even open up a root shell. For those new to Linux: this can be done as simple as "sudo su -". More details here: http://askubuntu.com/questions/376199/sudo-su-vs-sudo-i-vs-s... That said, -in my book using root except for updates is often a sign that someone misunderstood or that something is misconfigured or something.

> sudo su -

sudo -i

Re: .NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Arch Linux and I haven't faced any of the problems you mention. I don't game so this might be slightly skewed, but there's not a single thing on Windows that would tempt me into using it. Also the sudo point I completely disagree with. It comes down to security or convenience, and it's a damned shame that people pick convenience.

Further, if you are doing a bunch of administrative tasks from the CLI, sudo will keep you authenticated. If you really want, you could even open up a root shell. I think the real problem is that the Right Way(tm) to do things is completely non obvious to a linux novice. Looking back on my times starting out with linux (ubuntu 6.06), I remember a lot of similar frustrations. Really, there is no middle ground, you are…

> Really, there is no middle ground, you are either a novice or an expert, and bridging that gap is super challenging.

I think it's easier now.

Also, the "expert" level on windows… it's mindbogling complex.

Re: .NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, RPM and Deb files don't work for many distributions. Yes, the formats are shared (say, RPM for Fedora, RedHat, Suse). But the resulting binaries aren't (usually, automatically - you might get lucky of course) compatible. The whole point of distributions is to build a system. Fedora and Suse are on different schedules, make different decisions about updates, might run different versions of the libraries your packa…

I use OpenSUSE. The rpm's always work I might have to grab a dependency from somewhere or make a soft link, but 99% of the time they work. These are all the programs I use that I need to grab from RPM packages from their website RStudio (I use the preview version), Lightworks, Bittorrent Sync, and VS Code. Without RPM I would not get to use them period. In the old dasy of Linux their would be a lot of issues but pres…

We disagree a lot, so I'm going to bow out after this one. Please be assured that I don't intend to poke you or offend you - I genuinely feel that you are missing some pieces of the picture.

RPMs don't work in a vacuum. Unless you bundle a statically built thing or something trivial (say .. a shell script) you reference dependencies. Those change between environments.

32bit/64bit machines differ. Ubuntu vs. Debian, Suse vs. Fedora. Builds for current versions of Ubuntu might not/will not work on older ones. You can only provide a (guaranteed to be working) rpm by having one per combination here, a la 'This is for Ubuntu FunnyName 32bit'. You understand that this explodes in complexity quite easily and quite fast.

Now, you're bringing up exceptions again and again (your system is 99% Suse provided packages I'd bet and you have less than a handful applications that you install manually. High profile apps maybe, but still: A few, compared to your distribution's packages).

I can't explain each and every case, but let's look at VS Code: They offer an RPM. That's true. But that's a 50MB file that depends on .. nothing, really. glibc and /bin/sh. All static. You're downloading a zip, more or less. Possible, but wasteful and not common. Download Atom and VS Code and you download Electron twice. You're also ignoring most of rpm's feature set here. This is not a good example for 'providing an RPM' (again, a tar.gz might provide ~the same~ if you ignore that this puts a .desktop file in the right place to create a shortcut to launch this thing. Extracting this to ~/opt for example would give you 99% of what this RPM package does).

For ~normal~ projects, providing packages is just not feasible and bundling projects into coherent ... packages (ahahaha) is what distributions are for, really. Debian knows that it patched library X and all projects using that library might need to be bumped as well. Debian can rebuild their own packages at the same time. Upstream projects cannot follow every distribution and update their '32bit Debian Jessy' build in a timely manner after the distribution changed some parts of their system.

appimage/flatpak etc. are basically doing what your VS Code example did again: A bundle of everything. 'Portable apps' in the Windows world. OS X bundles. In my world that's really a bad trade-off, although I understand the appeal in terms of simplicity. I personally feel that this comes with a high(er) risk for security issues and don't like the wasted space.

Back to pinta: They provide a _real_ package (actually they don't provide any binary package, they just link to a PPA they maintain, probably because they actively use that themselves?) with dependencies. Not a lot, but they actually define a real package. Not a complete bundle with a random file extension like VS Code. For pinta it would be more effort to create RPMs and the benefits aren't clear at all (just zypper install pinta or whatever you do on Suse).

Please ignore the file extension. RPM isn't RPM in these cases. Please don't claim that pinta mixes up Linux and Ubuntu. There's no reason to get worked up ("I hate it when they do this") about this. They handle this the normal way, the standard way. I haven't seen Suse in action for ages, but I suppose you're either using KDE (likely) or Gnome (maybe). Both don't even offer any binaries (for Linux) as far as I'm aware.

vim doesn't offer RPMs either..

(On a side note: VS Code is completely available in the open for some time so it could be built the ~normal~ way using shared libraries for dependencies. Bittorrent Sync will always be a problem though)

Re: .NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

#255
post #30

The real story here is the forced updates. How do people who are planning demos and presentations handle this? It's my worst nightmare.

You're implying that the reboots occur at random without notification. They do not. Windows notifies you that updates were installed that require a reboot and that it will occur at off hours. If you ignore that notification then when the reboot is schedule to occur you receive another notification with the option to postpone the reboot for another amount of time. I've had these forced reboots happen a couple times an…

> Personally that sounds like heaven.

It sounds like heaven to have the capability. It sounds like hell to be forced to use it just because the computer's doing something you didn't ask it to.

Re: .NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

#256
post #30

The real story here is the forced updates. How do people who are planning demos and presentations handle this? It's my worst nightmare.

Windows 10 is designed to keep your computer safe. It'll let you know when you can use it! No time limits. Safety first.

Re: .NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're implying that the reboots occur at random without notification. They do not. Windows notifies you that updates were installed that require a reboot and that it will occur at off hours. If you ignore that notification then when the reboot is schedule to occur you receive another notification with the option to postpone the reboot for another amount of time. I've had these forced reboots happen a couple times an…

> You're implying that the reboots occur at random without notification. They do not. Well actually......twice in the past seven days I had updates installed during my "work hours" and it still went ahead and did the 20 minute reboot warning thing during the same specified work hours in the same day.

That's curious. I just checked and all of my machines have the reboot during off hours option turned on. I don't recall turning it on explicitly but it's entirely possible that I did, I'm usually not that thorough though.

Re: .NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real story here is the forced updates. How do people who are planning demos and presentations handle this? It's my worst nightmare. Manually run the update check every 2-3 days and run it again two hours before the presentation. Any updates that come out in that two hour window will allow you at least one delay. Come on, folks, this isn't exactly rocket science here. Keep your OS up to date and, surprisingly en…

I do a lot of presentations, and I'm on the Windows Insiders Fast Ring, meaning I get a new build about weekly, hence a lot more Windows Updates. I check for and install updates as part of my preparations before presenting. I've been doing this for years, on every operating system I present on (yay xcode updates over hotel wifi!). I've never had a problem with unexpected OS updates, because I run them explicitly. I d…

You work for an OS company. Your experience is by no means universal. Your way out on the far side of the bell-curve by about several light years.

What about non-tech savvy people who expect a computer to work like an appliance and "the bloody uupdate broke my presentation software".

The problem with the world today is there are too many bloody software dwvelopers, too many who seem so keen on sacrificing stability and compatibility with "The Next Thing".

As someone who works with computers and machines in a fabrication shop that, CNC machines that have never had a software update but they still work day in day out, and UI element that don't move or disappear on a weekly basis, I have to say my personal experience of smartphones and computers (Mac, Windows, Linux) is this: OH MY FUCKING GOD WHY DID THEY CHANGE THAT. WHY DOES IT DO THAT. STOP CHANGING EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME.

Yep, computers are huge piles of black-box shit to the average person, who expects their computer to be more like an appliance.

Re: .NET on Linux – bye, Windows 10

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're implying that the reboots occur at random without notification. They do not. Windows notifies you that updates were installed that require a reboot and that it will occur at off hours. If you ignore that notification then when the reboot is schedule to occur you receive another notification with the option to postpone the reboot for another amount of time. I've had these forced reboots happen a couple times an…

> Personally that sounds like heaven. It sounds like heaven to have the capability. It sounds like hell to be forced to use it just because the computer's doing something you didn't ask it to.

The user isn't forced to use it so much as it just works. The feature itself is nice in for many reasons beyond the operating system rebooting after updates. Loss of power, system hangs, and program lockups come to mind as situations where it would be nice.

I think about my browser not restoring tabs after crashing and I shudder because that happens at least once a week. Notepad++ has had this saved state functionality for a while and I take advantage of it quite a bit. I think it would be great if every application did it. Most core Apple applications can resume after reboot.

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