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Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

nytimes.com

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Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#231

Post by jokoon »

muninn_ wrote: post #39
jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

Have you considered coming to study in the United States and obtaining a bachelor's degree? Software development is in high demand in all aspects here. At worst you get a break from your current life, at best you start a new one. Let me know if you want to chat more.

I have the french baccalaureat. To be honest, I doubt that I can really come to the US that easily, or I really don't have the money to do so.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#232

Post by denzil_correa »

throwaway1892 wrote: post #216
denzil_correa wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right there in the abstract > a common theme is that, despite the negative short-term impact on recipient economies, they offer potential gains in the long term. In addition, Figure 4.21 (and surrounding text) explicitly mentions the positive longer term growth effects due to migrants. > So a part of the migrants would not influence positively the GDP for a few years and put more pressure on public welfare system, as…

Ok, thank you for the information. > That is assuming the current system is not good enough. Where I am, the current system seems sorely lacking, for example regarding the number of homeless, social mobility, existing public infrastructure, education, healthcare... > Generally, migrants move to countries with opportunities. Apparently 10% of unemployment is enough of an opportunity for migrant going to Western Europe…

The original article points to an overall positive effect of migration including refugees. I don't see how this will change.

That said, the falling social security system in Europe is not due to refugees but to how the system is built.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#233

Post by jokoon »

gaius wrote: post #194
jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

Out of curiosity what condition leaves you unable to work in tech but able to serve in the army? And in which branch?

That's a weird thing. I have no visible or serious mental disability, but I was given the status of "handicapped worker". A panel of experts examine your file and decide to give it to you or not.

It does not entitles me to money, but companies must have 6% of handicapped personnel or they must pay some small fine.

It's in the "armee de terre", meaning ground army. It's not the usual army training, since it's the reserve. It's only a 2 week training.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#234

Post by snowwrestler »

awjr wrote: post #62
andrepd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to de…

I see this differently. I see a world heading towards basic income. Adam Curtis - HyperNormalisation was released last night ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04b183c/adam-curtis-hy... ). Haven't watched it yet but I do think there seems to be a certain type of crazy happening in the world and I can't put my finger on it. We have whole generations of young people that have been disenfranchised and are having to…

There's a big problem that a basic income doesn't solve, which is the lack of a job. From the article:

> Some experts suspect that frequent use of painkillers is a result of being out of work, because people who have no job prospects are more likely to be depressed, become addicted to drugs and alcohol and have other mental health problems.

A job is more than a way to earn money. Jobs help people structure their lives and live with a sense of purpose.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#235

Post by logfromblammo »

gizmo wrote: post #228
logfromblammo wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, their war actually ended . The Boomers experimented with extended war in Vietnam from about 1961 to around 1973, as the prototype. Gen X got to grow up with the Cold War, as the test type. Now Millennials get the production-model War on Terror, where the enemy is intentionally faceless, so that they can't spoil anything by surrendering, being defeated, or going bankrupt. The bogeyman is dead; fear now the ne…

Having to pay taxes and being burdened by college debt sucks, but it's not comparable to real actual enslavement. Your excuses why people might make that absurd claim (desire to engine in hyperbole and disdain for the Boomer generation) don't change the fact that slavery is worse. Your post is also bad history. Firstly, a full third of households held enslaved people in the south. Not just the rich elites. Secondly,…

Interesting choice of statistics, there. Most of that third of all households kept fewer than 10 slaves, if they even had more than just one. The majority of all slaves were held by a relatively small number of households representing the richest people in the South.

The history of the Underground Railroad and Caribbean slave rebellions shows that it was, in fact, possible for slaves to escape slavery. Smuggling yourself to Canada won't get you away from Experian et al.

But if you had read my post more carefully, you might have noticed that I did say that most people would share the opinion that slavery is worse, and those who did not were probably just doing it for rhetorical effect. It's the same sort of behavior as saying someone is "literally Hitler"--extreme hyperbole.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#236

Post by trentnix »

DashRattlesnake wrote: post #215
trentnix wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the thing - temp labor is, by definition, disposable . A business has little incentive to invest in employees that are likely to turn over frequently, and that's what temp labor does. The links you provided - which read like propaganda, btw - have an insightful message: "mainly all I needed to get hired was to confirm 20 or 30 times that I had not been to prison" So it appears Amazon does struggle to get g…

> But that's the thing - temp labor is, by definition, disposable. You're moving the goalposts. Your initial post, which I was responding to, said that companies treating their unskilled workers as disposable "doesn't pass the smell test." Now, when confronted with evidence, you claim that same treatment is "by definition." That's not very consistent. > The links you provided - which read like propaganda, btw So sorr…

1. Hardly. It's simply a recognition that a temp worker and temp opportunity recognize the fleeting nature of a particular job position.

2. They read like propaganda because they set up dramatic emotional arguments about people and their families. Is it really necessary to know that the gentleman calls his wife at 2am because she "can't sleep when he isn't there"? It's manipulation, and consequently your response would lead me to feel quite comfortable that it's not me in the bubble.

3. If the economics of a particular job don't justify a higher wage, then the standards for hiring are lowered. It's not a reach at all to arrive at my conclusion.

4. Indeed, these workers are people. And because they aren't unthinking machines, they shouldn't work in a place that doesn't place any value on their well-being. The market will then sort out poor employers appropriately.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#237

Post by pjc50 »

jazzyk wrote: post #180
pjc50 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Contributing to the labour force" isn't a religion; it is a necessary condition of life, without which we starve. .. and that's why we turn pensioners out into the snow once they cease contributing. Oh, wait, no we don't, because we recognise that they're human beings and members of society.

Pensioners contributed through all their life to society and when they retire, it is expected that they are taken care of. The OP is talking about cases where you are not in retirement, and not disabled, the society expects you to pull your own weight. It is only fair, no?

I'm no longer sure which post is "OP" in this thread, but the problem is definitely deciding which people are and are not disabled. Setting up an adversarial system where you have to prove disability makes the problem worse, not better: people who are only somewhat disabled lose out, while people who are better at faking it get the benefits.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#238

Post by Grishnakh »

gizmo wrote: post #90
awjr wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this differently. I see a world heading towards basic income. Adam Curtis - HyperNormalisation was released last night ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04b183c/adam-curtis-hy... ). Haven't watched it yet but I do think there seems to be a certain type of crazy happening in the world and I can't put my finger on it. We have whole generations of young people that have been disenfranchised and are having to…

Millennials have to carry that financial burden, but most other generations had to make much bigger sacrifices. I'd take the financial struggles of the millennial generation over having to fight in WW2 and rebuilding the nation in the aftermath, which is what the Greatest Generation got tasked with. Every generation faces difficult challenges, and the financial issues of the millennial generation are just a matter of…

>I'd take the financial struggles of the millennial generation over having to fight in WW2 and rebuilding the nation in the aftermath, which is what the Greatest Generation got tasked with.

What in the hell are you talking about (or smoking)? If you're talking about the US, which seems to be the case given your talk of financial struggles and "Millennials", the US won the lottery with WWII. In case you forgot, the US was completely unscathed (except for some bombed ships in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii), and there was no rebuilding to do! Instead, we were the only industrial power left standing, so we made out like bandits by helping everyone else rebuild. Why do you think we became so economically powerful? All the other powers had to buy all their stuff from us! The "Greatest Generation" wasn't "tasked" with much: they put up with 4 years of war (mostly finishing up the job after England and Russia duked it out with Germany, plus dealing with Imperial Japan), and in return they profited handsomely.

If it weren't for WWII (and maybe WWI before it), America would not be a superpower now. We'd be more like Mexico: a good-sized economy, but probably not the most powerful nation on earth both economically and militarily, as Germany and Britain and maybe France would have been too much competition.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#239

Post by Grishnakh »

jliptzin wrote: post #102
secstate wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with your statement is that the Information Revolution came with a philosophy that automation would end the need for 9-5 Industrial Revolution ideas of work. It hasn't, and we're still working 40 hours a week, but now it's to support the consumption machine that WWII created. Do we really need new original Netflix programming? Do we need whatever crazy-ass pumpkin and coffee flavored beverage a ha…

There are people at Starbucks who genuinely enjoy creating those new pumpkin flavored concoctions. It's jobs for which no person enjoys doing that need to be automated, like taping up the same packing box 600 times a day.

I'm sure if you look hard, you can find some people who (would) genuinely enjoy taping up boxes too, generally among people who are mentally challenged. But like the baristas, these jobs will eventually be automated because it'll be cheaper and more efficient to do so than to have humans doing them. If I'm buying crap online from Amazon, I'd rather save money and have my boxes packed by a robot than pay someone to do it, and similarly, if I'm buying a drink, I'd rather save some money and have a robot make it for me, and be much more likely to have a consistent product (human-made coffee/tea drinks are notoriously inconsistent in quality; some baristas suck, and even good baristas make mistakes).

Personally, I think the only real reason to have human workers in our automated future is to have some human contact. So there's no reason to have human baristas: those people stand behind a counter and I may or may not be able to interact with them, depending on how the establishment is laid out. But if I go to a café and sit in a comfy chair and order a drink, I'd rather have a cute college girl bring it to me than a robot.

So basically, until femmebots are invented and perfected, the big value that humans can provide that robots and automation cannot is sex and socialization.

And if they ever invent AI robots that look and act just like people, it's all over for humans because the robots won't have our annoying flaws.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#240

Post by nitrogen »

disease wrote: post #115
nitrogen wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be argued that it's not unemployment itself that causes depression, but the implications and effects of unemployment. If one could magically find independence, social acceptance, and financial support without employment, I suspect most of the ill effects of unemployment would disappear.

As someone who has spent significant amounts of time 'funemployed', I have to disagree. There's a great line from Madmen about people that retire early. They play golf, they go to parties and then they die.

I think the trick might be treating "work" and "employment" as separate concepts. Systematically unemployed people might find fulfillment working on things they decide for themselves are worth the effort.
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