Vim for Humans • Hacker News Board

Re: Vim for Humans

#81

Post by JoshTriplett » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

t4nkd wrote: post #66

JoshTriplett wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone who only uses Vim casually, what's an example of a bad default? By default, vim doesn't enable filetype detection or syntax highlighting, so even though it can easily recognize a source file's language, it doesn't.

Anecdotally, this is exactly the sort of thing I have never needed while using vim on a server. Just let me modify content in the word hole...

vim isn't the "on a server" editor for me, it's the "everything" editor. I like that it works the same way everywhere, but I primarily use it to edit files that do have recognized filetypes.

(As an aside, for me the main value of syntax highlighting isn't the normal case, but rather the case where the syntax highlighting emphasizes a problem, such as an unterminated string or other typo.)

Re: Vim for Humans

#82

Post by jon_richards » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

ifoundthetao wrote: post #16

gravypod wrote: post #10

I wish I could use vim or emacs. I don't know if I'm stupid or something but all of the key bindings, everything you have to remember, it just doesn't make sense to me. I wish there was something like nano + plugins. If I had that I could implement most of what I need (other then auto-completion for a crap load of languages).

Vim is very easy, I think it's just simple to get overwhelmed with it. There are a couple of tools which gamify Vim. I personally haven't used them. But some say they're pretty good. For me, what worked was just jumping in and going whole hog. I tried disabling the arrow keys in Normal Mode, so I would have to use hjkl for navigation. But my keyboard puts the arrow keys in easy reach (Kinesis Advantage), so it turned…

Why do people not like :x ?

Re: Vim for Humans

#83

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

ifoundthetao wrote: post #16

gravypod wrote: post #10

I wish I could use vim or emacs. I don't know if I'm stupid or something but all of the key bindings, everything you have to remember, it just doesn't make sense to me. I wish there was something like nano + plugins. If I had that I could implement most of what I need (other then auto-completion for a crap load of languages).

Vim is very easy, I think it's just simple to get overwhelmed with it. There are a couple of tools which gamify Vim. I personally haven't used them. But some say they're pretty good. For me, what worked was just jumping in and going whole hog. I tried disabling the arrow keys in Normal Mode, so I would have to use hjkl for navigation. But my keyboard puts the arrow keys in easy reach (Kinesis Advantage), so it turned…

[deleted]

Re: Vim for Humans

#84

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

I continue to be baffled that software written 40+ years ago, to deal with constraints and realities that are long long gone keep being used by people on the cutting edge of technology change.

Re: Vim for Humans

#85

Post by masukomi » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

test1235 wrote: post #50

exDM69 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copy over one file (.vimrc) and you're done. If you use plugins, then copy them over with git or whatever. And my setup is very conservative so it's mild annoyance at worst. The defaults are just bad, I recommend using vim-sensible or doing your own lean and mean vim config.

As someone who only uses Vim casually, what's an example of a bad default? For someone who is new to Vim, they wouldn't know if the controls are bad, or tough to learn e.g. using jkl; instead of arrow keys.

hjkl (not jkl;) are a) ergonomically bad because they are one key off of home row position and b) completely useless for anyone who types with a different keyboard such as Dvorak, and presumably some foreign language ones.

also, HJKL actually IS the arrow keys... but it's the arrow keys from an ancient computer that no longer exists. People get all uppity about it being the "right" way but there's no logical argument that supports hjkl on a modern computer OTHER than the fact that it's the default.

Re: Vim for Humans

#86

Post by olalonde » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

gravypod wrote: post #10

I wish I could use vim or emacs. I don't know if I'm stupid or something but all of the key bindings, everything you have to remember, it just doesn't make sense to me. I wish there was something like nano + plugins. If I had that I could implement most of what I need (other then auto-completion for a crap load of languages).

Learning Vim is probably a bit like learning to bicycle/swim. It requires a lot of conscious effort at first but eventually becomes a second nature. Also, I doubt many vim users would use "nano + plugins" if vim suddenly disappeared. The fact that vim has many plugins and runs in the terminal is nice but isn't the main reason people use it IMO.

I second the suggestion of using vimtutor to get started (uninstalling other editors helps too!).

Re: Vim for Humans

#87

Post by sfrailsdev » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

ensiferum wrote: post #21

the only thing you need to know about vim, "kill -9 `pidof vim`" Seriously, why bother with this esoteric and cryptic software when something like Atom,SublimeText and VSCode exist...

Because for a variety of things, vim allows you to work smarter, not harder.

Re: Vim for Humans

#88

Post by travv0 » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

jon_richards wrote: post #82

ifoundthetao wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vim is very easy, I think it's just simple to get overwhelmed with it. There are a couple of tools which gamify Vim. I personally haven't used them. But some say they're pretty good. For me, what worked was just jumping in and going whole hog. I tried disabling the arrow keys in Normal Mode, so I would have to use hjkl for navigation. But my keyboard puts the arrow keys in easy reach (Kinesis Advantage), so it turned…

Why do people not like :x ?

:wq is a natural extension of :w, and half the time I haven't even decided to quit Vim until I've already typed the :w.

Re: Vim for Humans

#89

Post by cbsmith » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #84

I continue to be baffled that software written 40+ years ago, to deal with constraints and realities that are long long gone keep being used by people on the cutting edge of technology change.

...because it turns out that it is easier to just tweak existing software that has addressed the many, many problems that have remained constant?

Try running vim on PDP-11. I dare ya.

Re: Vim for Humans

#90

Post by exDM69 » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

masukomi wrote: post #85

test1235 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who only uses Vim casually, what's an example of a bad default? For someone who is new to Vim, they wouldn't know if the controls are bad, or tough to learn e.g. using jkl; instead of arrow keys.

hjkl (not jkl;) are a) ergonomically bad because they are one key off of home row position and b) completely useless for anyone who types with a different keyboard such as Dvorak, and presumably some foreign language ones. also, HJKL actually IS the arrow keys... but it's the arrow keys from an ancient computer that no longer exists. People get all uppity about it being the "right" way but there's no logical argument…

I disagree with this. The j key is the most used out of hjkl, and it's under your right index finger. I do most horizontal movement with left hand (primarily w and b) anyway.