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Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

nytimes.com

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Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#41

Post by andrepd »

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

>The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy.

It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to death. It seems to me to be a gigantic sense of entitlement, that you deride people who work and brag about not looking for a job and complain about being called lazy, when in fact those people are the ones paying for your food so you can lounge about your house and paint and what else. Unless you have a legitimate disability, yeah, that pisses me off.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#42

Post by trentnix »

makomk wrote: post #30

It probably doesn't help that some companies, such as Amazon, like to treat their unskilled labourers as basically disposable. It's a lot more profitable to set performance requirements that are impossible to meet without seriously injuring yourself, then replace all the temp workers regularly with fresh meat, than to have decent working conditions.

The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test. I own a business (retail) that employs 10 and retail is, to a certain degree, "unskilled". My experience has been that it is very, very difficult to find dependable, trustworthy employees who work diligently and productively.

Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system that treats employees as disposable. It's not profitable at all to do what you indicated is being done, as the cost of finding, hiring, and training new employees is considerable. That's why, so often, you see businesses doing the opposite of what you describe by holding on to poor performers far longer than they should - dealing with worker incompetence is sometimes preferable to starting over hoping for a different outcome.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#43

Post by reverend_gonzo »

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

Maybe I'm missing something here, but you seem to contradict yourself:

  The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing
  The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy.
If you're happy sitting at home and drawing, and you can pay your bills and survive in that manner, more power to you, but it seems you're not happy doing that.

From what you write, it seems that you want someone to just give you a job, without you really having to going put in the effort to work for it. You say you're also training to be an army reservist, which implies that you're at least physically fit, and you know how to code, so you're at least mentally capable, so I'm guessing the disability is related to something like depression.

Now, I have no intention to knock depression, but it is on you to figure out how you can live that will satisfy you and provide your needs, whether it is working a corporate job, working in a field or being an artist.

But the way you describe yourself, I think the majority of people would classify you as being lazy, and I would say they are right to do so.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#44

Post by brookside »

andrepd wrote: post #41
jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

>The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to de…

This exactly.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#45

Post by bigmanwalter »

muninn_ wrote: post #39
jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

Have you considered coming to study in the United States and obtaining a bachelor's degree? Software development is in high demand in all aspects here. At worst you get a break from your current life, at best you start a new one. Let me know if you want to chat more.

I mean, $40,000 of student debt sounds like a great way to motivate someone to find work, but I don't think it's an ideal way to solve his problems.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#46

Post by brookside »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #17
contingencies wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey I'm not claiming nobody's sick, just that if that many people have problems functioning in society then society's probably a big part of the problem.

Your rhetoric implies an allegation of sickness rather than them actually being sick. I'm not going to deny that society may have contributing factors such as stigma or how society deals with traumatized individuals, but to imply that that many people being that sick is to be prescribed to an issue with the definition of being mentally ill strikes me as strange.

Depression really is more akin to a symptom than a disease. There aren't even clearly defined biomarkers that are associated with this cluster of symptoms we call depression.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#47

Post by slfnflctd »

contingencies wrote: post #36
Shivetya wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well i can see those replying to you completely ignore the amount of money involved in diagnosing such issues. it is similar to handing out handicap placards, there is so much money to be had from various programs that its profitable for both hospital and even the patients. worse the system discourages not giving patients the designation they want because doctors are routinely subject to surveys that must come back p…

Thanks for contributing to the discussion instead of attacking my (apparently much misinterpreted) statement. There is a systemic problem with the bureaucracy around health in many countries, and western countries have diagnosed huge amounts of mental 'disorders' from children to adults in the past few decades. There is certainly a profit motive. However, there is also a reality that in an increasingly urbanized/auto…

> mental 'disorders'

The DSM has certainly done its share of damage, I have to say. I think we'd agree on that. I'm not even sure it's done more good than harm.

You keep coming back to this being a problem with our social structure, and honestly I do suspect it's probably the biggest factor. This is why I support Basic Income (with a non-ludicrous rollout, and plenty of balancing along the way).

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#48

Post by andrepd »

muse900 wrote: post #32

What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well... There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system. People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds…

>Unfortunately prices went up, on houses etc and nowadays you got Tech involved in anything you do. You have to have a smartphone, and your wife wants the smartphone with the bitten apple no matter if it will cost half a months salary. Your kids want an Ipad or some sort of tablet. Your household needs a TV with netflix, amazon and whatever so you don't get bored. Add all those small things around and the era where everyone is obsessed with "BRANDS", yes let me buy a GANT sweater cause it going to make me so cool, while I could have bought a sweater much much cheaper of the same quality.

I don't understand, what do you mean by this? Does anyone force you to buy a bitten off apple brand phone? You can get excellent smartphones that last for 3 years for less than 200$. Does anyone force you to buy a gant sweater? Quality clothes are dirt cheap nowadays. Your kids "want" an ipad? Buy them a cheaper tablet, or better yet, don't buy them a tablet at all. But a raspberry pi and a couple of snes controllers and download some old games. Problem solved.

You complain that nowadays people are obsessed with brands, and that is definitely so, a legitimate observation, but if you are aware of that, what's forcing you yourself to buy into it?

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#49

Post by hedgew »

In programming and academia you only see the most gifted of society, and even many of those seem to struggle. I can barely imagine what it would be like to be in the less gifted half of the population. I wonder if such men have any chance to build a life respected, or even just work enough to found a family. They seem to have fewer options each year, to find satisfying roles in life.

They seem to receive even less understanding or sympathy.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#50

Post by throwaway1892 »

denzil_correa wrote: post #5
saiya-jin wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are describing small part of europe, that's getting even smaller. just give immigration a bit of time

> you are describing small part of europe, that's getting even smaller. How small? > just give immigration a bit of time Do you have a time frame? How will it effect?

> How will it effect?

My guess is that the increase number of immigrants in Western Europe will cause a reduction in social benefits

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