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WTF is a container?

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Re: WTF is a container?

#131

Post by paulddraper »

BjoernKW wrote: post #76

Containers are often touted is this novel concept that's bound to revolutionise software development and software delivery in particular. The general idea isn't all that new however. Java Applications have been delivered as containers since 1995 (although the concept isn't explicitly named that way with Java applications). Each JAR / WAR is a self-contained application that can run anywhere where there's a JVM (which…

Actually, JARs are even more compatible than that: they can run against a huge number of OSs and architectures, even in embedded systems.

Re: WTF is a container?

#132

Post by bboreham »

majewsky wrote: post #57
chewchew wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's up to you to make your containers bloated or keep them slim. You can use the alpine versions of the official Dockerhub images. Python on Alpine is 30 MB (vs 267 MB for the debian one). https://hub.docker.com/r/library/python/tags/ You can create containers that are just a few MB with compiled languages like Go (5 MB). https://www.iron.io/microcontainers-tiny-portable-containers... From the article: "Rather than…

Alpine containers are nice if you're just looking at size. But they break down once you `docker exec` into them to try to debug something: $ docker exec -ti mycontainer /bin/bash stat /bin/bash: no such file or directory $ docker exec -ti mycontainer /bin/sh / # curl https://localhost:5000/ /bin/sh: curl: not found / # strace $command /bin/sh: strace: not found

Takes about 2 seconds to fix:

  $ docker run -ti alpine /bin/sh
  / # apk add --update curl
  fetch http://dl-cdn.alpinelinux.org/alpine/v3.4/main/x86_64/APKINDEX.tar.gz
  fetch http://dl-cdn.alpinelinux.org/alpine/v3.4/community/x86_64/APKINDEX.tar.gz
  (1/4) Installing ca-certificates (20160104-r4)
  (2/4) Installing libssh2 (1.7.0-r0)
  (3/4) Installing libcurl (7.50.3-r0)
  (4/4) Installing curl (7.50.3-r0)
  Executing busybox-1.24.2-r9.trigger
  Executing ca-certificates-20160104-r4.trigger
  OK: 6 MiB in 15 packages

Re: WTF is a container?

#133

Post by shawnee_ »

Azeralthefallen wrote: post #101

I remember going to AWS Reinvent last year and having some beers with a bunch of people who did devops. We started talking about tools, and they were utterly flabbergasted, that we had not embraced docker. They went on an on about how simple docker made HA, and handling fail overs/maintenance. More or less made it seem like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Me and a few coworkers decided to try and docker…

Trying to debug why our app in the container isn't working is not fun at all.

My experience with AWS was similar, and I got to a point where I had to stop accepting clients who had built (or insisted on building) their infrastructure on AWS. It actually kind of reminds me of a pyramid scheme where they ensnare you with a seemingly good deal, but in order to get that you've gotta buy in just a little (time, cost, etc) more and more -- just to be able to debug -- and more until you're calculating sunk costs[1] bigger than any company should have to spend on something as trivial as, say, a Wordpress site. It's highly unlikely that 95 percent of the SMB websites out there need the overkill of AWS infrastructure / EC. Do a cost benefit analysis.

Re: WTF is a container?

#134

Post by nawtacawp »

majewsky wrote: post #57
chewchew wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's up to you to make your containers bloated or keep them slim. You can use the alpine versions of the official Dockerhub images. Python on Alpine is 30 MB (vs 267 MB for the debian one). https://hub.docker.com/r/library/python/tags/ You can create containers that are just a few MB with compiled languages like Go (5 MB). https://www.iron.io/microcontainers-tiny-portable-containers... From the article: "Rather than…

Alpine containers are nice if you're just looking at size. But they break down once you `docker exec` into them to try to debug something: $ docker exec -ti mycontainer /bin/bash stat /bin/bash: no such file or directory $ docker exec -ti mycontainer /bin/sh / # curl https://localhost:5000/ /bin/sh: curl: not found / # strace $command /bin/sh: strace: not found

Thats not really broken. It is just a minimal image. If you want more pacakages then install them via the Dockerfile before you fire up the image. I like starting with a bare container. For example I might take an alpine image, install openvpn and use it to serve an always on vpn connection to other containers. The VPN container doesnt need a shell or anything else really. The only thing I want to see when I attach to the container is what openvpn is spitting out.

Re: WTF is a container?

#135

Post by OhHeyItsE »

Azeralthefallen wrote: post #101

I remember going to AWS Reinvent last year and having some beers with a bunch of people who did devops. We started talking about tools, and they were utterly flabbergasted, that we had not embraced docker. They went on an on about how simple docker made HA, and handling fail overs/maintenance. More or less made it seem like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Me and a few coworkers decided to try and docker…

I, too, think Docker is the bee's knees. But I don't think it would be good fit for a datastore (even though zeitgeist is to Dockerize all the things).

Docker seems to work best in an SOA type environment where you have a set of stateless services that might use different stacks. Docker simply unifies their provisioning and deployment.

Re: WTF is a container?

#136

Post by bartread »

Azeralthefallen wrote: post #101

I remember going to AWS Reinvent last year and having some beers with a bunch of people who did devops. We started talking about tools, and they were utterly flabbergasted, that we had not embraced docker. They went on an on about how simple docker made HA, and handling fail overs/maintenance. More or less made it seem like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Me and a few coworkers decided to try and docker…

It's exactly these kinds of issues that add to my impression that containerisation, and Docker in particular, is more of a religion than a solution.

I don't hate it per se, but I'm just a bit fed up of people telling me I should be using it without being able to articulate what problem it's going to solve for me.

At the moment it feels like just one more thing to learn, and one more moving part, that isn't strictly necessary in order to achieve what I need, which is basically to deploy software without a heap of aggravation.

Re: WTF is a container?

#137

Post by X86BSD »

tigershark wrote: post #130
chewchew wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Docker gives you the building blocks, but that means you have more pieces to arrange and manage. Take a look at Docker Compose if you haven't already, since the Docker CLI only gets you so far when you're creating apps that consist of multiple containers. I think the best approach for your cert issue is to abstract that into a separate service (nginx is an option, but I'd recommend the Rancher approach below). Yes, t…

Seriously? If something crashes continuously in production then the solution is "just pass the --restart=always flag. I really wonder if you guys are really using docker in prod. I would never use something like that to manage important transactions.

No the correct solution is to debug the issue not just reboot/restart/reinit the damn thing.

This mentality is WHY Linux/docker/containers/Linux worlds NIH syndrome, is such a tire fire.

Re: WTF is a container?

#138

Post by X86BSD »

Keyframe wrote: post #123
dragonsh wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Containers!=docker, I think if you used lxd container, your experience might have been different as they work like virtual machine. I am using lxd in production and it has been a pleasure with live migration, snapshots and good old configuration management using ansible.

There's also rkt!

I'll also add a plug for tredly.com here. "Containers done right" and pretty much all of Joyents container work.

Re: WTF is a container?

#139

Post by TickleSteve »

ksec wrote: post #124
Azeralthefallen wrote: post #101

I remember going to AWS Reinvent last year and having some beers with a bunch of people who did devops. We started talking about tools, and they were utterly flabbergasted, that we had not embraced docker. They went on an on about how simple docker made HA, and handling fail overs/maintenance. More or less made it seem like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Me and a few coworkers decided to try and docker…

flabbergasted? Wow this is a new word for me, I have never heard of it. When i first read it in my mind I thought it was a Spanish Football player that used to play for Arsenal, Then Barcelona, and now Chelsea. LoL Is this word even used anywhere else beyond US? Never heard it used in the UK.

flabbergasted is very widely used in the UK, really puzzled how you could possibly not come across it if you've spent more than a few months here.

Re: WTF is a container?

#140

Post by user5994461 »

shawnee_ wrote: post #133
Azeralthefallen wrote: post #101

I remember going to AWS Reinvent last year and having some beers with a bunch of people who did devops. We started talking about tools, and they were utterly flabbergasted, that we had not embraced docker. They went on an on about how simple docker made HA, and handling fail overs/maintenance. More or less made it seem like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Me and a few coworkers decided to try and docker…

Trying to debug why our app in the container isn't working is not fun at all. My experience with AWS was similar, and I got to a point where I had to stop accepting clients who had built (or insisted on building) their infrastructure on AWS. It actually kind of reminds me of a pyramid scheme where they ensnare you with a seemingly good deal, but in order to get that you've gotta buy in just a little (time, cost, etc)…

You entirely missed the point. AWS is not relevant. All the issues are coming from docker.
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