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KiCad: A commitment to freedom

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Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#81

Post by ZenoArrow »

aylons wrote: post #74
ZenoArrow wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I'll tell you outright that a non-commercial license is a no-no for research institutes." That makes no sense. Software licencing and product support are two completely different factors. You can have software support agreements with open-source software, that's how companies like Red Hat and Canonical make their money.

I assure you it makes a lot of sense and is practiced by several labs from around the world. Hardware is not software - you don't simply compile it in your computer. You don't pay other company to just do just give support to you: you license to them so they can tweak it, manufacture, and sell the hardware to you and other research labs.

> "You don't pay other company to just do just give support to you: you license to them so they can tweak it"

Open-source support companies can still tweak the software for you, and are free to do so because of the permissive licences.

Take a look at the business model section of Red Hat's Wikipedia page:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#82

Post by rstuart4133 »

aylons wrote: post #74
ZenoArrow wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I'll tell you outright that a non-commercial license is a no-no for research institutes." That makes no sense. Software licencing and product support are two completely different factors. You can have software support agreements with open-source software, that's how companies like Red Hat and Canonical make their money.

I assure you it makes a lot of sense and is practiced by several labs from around the world. Hardware is not software - you don't simply compile it in your computer. You don't pay other company to just do just give support to you: you license to them so they can tweak it, manufacture, and sell the hardware to you and other research labs.

> Also, a non-commercial license restrict sharing between labs, or even use for some entities that work as government contractors.

That is one of the more bizarre things I've read here. You are saying an licence whose terms explicit permit copying for free are worse at sharing than licences that forbid it doing sharing it, ever.

> You don't pay other company to just do just give support to you: you license to them so they can tweak it, manufacture, and sell the hardware to you and other research labs.

That's just weird. The people who maintain my car didn't make it, the people who supply me my email didn't design it, the people who run my government don't own it. All the software I run has security patches supplied within hours, for free, by people who didn't write it and don't own it. And yes, they are faster and break less than their commercial "upgrade to the new version" counterparts.

You and your labs live in an alternate universe to me, my friend.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#83

Post by dbcurtis »

dima55 wrote: post #77
blackguardx wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A long time ago, I used the GNU PCB tool to design a flex circuit. I ended up having to hand edit the gerber files to get the project done because it didn't support changing soldermask opening. I think they've changed it since then, but it was rough for awhile.

I've used GNU PCB and gschem extensively. While there's a definite learning curve, I've found them very usable and produced many boards with great success. Like you say, maybe you hit some issues that have since been fixed, but this is another datapoint. As for kicad, it came into existence after I was relatively proficient with gEDA, and it there never were any compelling reasons to switch.

I'm pretty much in the same place. I have gEDA symbol and footprint libraries that I like, and the cost of redoing those and climbing the learning curve for KiCAD isn't justified. Many of my friends use KiCAD, and it seems both have issues, just in different places. I've looked at the KiCAD footprint library format, and it is a sad mess. Of course, gEDA's footprint library format also has limitations of probably equal measure.

In any case, I've done many rigid PCBs and one flex PCB with gEDA and never had to resort to hand-editing files. That said, I have written my own footprint creation tools to get exactly what I want. That up-front cost is part of getting either KiCAD or gEDA to yield the desired results.

As in many things about EDA, libraries are the speed bump that repeatedly jars your brain case.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#84

Post by reportingsjr »

rasz_pl wrote: post #72
db48x wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$500 a day is quite inexpensive for a competent developer. Perhaps you overestimate how far your donation will go.

this $500 a day is for a CERN INTERN. Not CV heavyweight with FB salary.

Where have you heard this? When I asked the CERN group they said they planned to hire a contractor with the donations. The CERN interns already regularly work on KiCad.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#85

Post by aylons »

rstuart4133 wrote: post #82
aylons wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you it makes a lot of sense and is practiced by several labs from around the world. Hardware is not software - you don't simply compile it in your computer. You don't pay other company to just do just give support to you: you license to them so they can tweak it, manufacture, and sell the hardware to you and other research labs.

> Also, a non-commercial license restrict sharing between labs, or even use for some entities that work as government contractors. That is one of the more bizarre things I've read here. You are saying an licence whose terms explicit permit copying for free are worse at sharing than licences that forbid it doing sharing it, ever. > You don't pay other company to just do just give support to you: you license to them so…

Yes, I live in the high-complexity, low-volume hardware universe. Quite different from cars and software.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#86

Post by blackguardx »

dbcurtis wrote: post #83
dima55 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used GNU PCB and gschem extensively. While there's a definite learning curve, I've found them very usable and produced many boards with great success. Like you say, maybe you hit some issues that have since been fixed, but this is another datapoint. As for kicad, it came into existence after I was relatively proficient with gEDA, and it there never were any compelling reasons to switch.

I'm pretty much in the same place. I have gEDA symbol and footprint libraries that I like, and the cost of redoing those and climbing the learning curve for KiCAD isn't justified. Many of my friends use KiCAD, and it seems both have issues, just in different places. I've looked at the KiCAD footprint library format, and it is a sad mess. Of course, gEDA's footprint library format also has limitations of probably equa…

This was over 10 years ago.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#87

Post by nibnib »

exabrial wrote: post #60
pdx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are called autoplace and autoroute. They exist, but NONE of the PCB designers I have worked with, all of who have worked at multiple big name tech companies and still do, use these tools. Do the work. Even something as simple at a guitar amplifier needs attention to detail, to route ground currents away from where they can cause noise. Even something as simple as a guitar amplifier needs attention to the curren…

:) Thank you for the encouragement. That's good information to know. I've got a hand wired prototype, and it seems to work ok, so my PCB is going to be similar. That's one nice about (tube) guitar amplifiers: max current is at the power supply pin, about 72ma, despite transferring 27w or so. So your voltages are pretty high , but your traces can be pretty thin. The big thing is leaving plenty of space to prevent arcs…

You also need to allow for failure conditions. If a power tube fails as a short or low impedance, which will vaporise first: your thin tracks, or your fuse?

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#88

Post by dbcurtis »

blackguardx wrote: post #86
dbcurtis wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty much in the same place. I have gEDA symbol and footprint libraries that I like, and the cost of redoing those and climbing the learning curve for KiCAD isn't justified. Many of my friends use KiCAD, and it seems both have issues, just in different places. I've looked at the KiCAD footprint library format, and it is a sad mess. Of course, gEDA's footprint library format also has limitations of probably equa…

This was over 10 years ago.

Yes, thungs have changed a lot in 10 years. Not enough, though. But it is definately possible to do good work in either gEDA or KiCAD.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#89

Post by jwr »

dfox wrote: post #76
jwr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me present a counter-opinion. I found KiCad to be surprisingly useful, not for super-complex boards, but for significantly more than just the simplest of projects (I'm using it for four-layer boards with controlled impedance tracks and differential pairs). Yes, there are bugs and annoyances. But not enough to shell out 6kEUR or so for the next step up in EDA tools (which would be Altium Designer, and I'm not even…

Probably my biggest annoyance with OpenGL mode is that it completely changes the UI logic form standard mode (arguably it makes the interface more Windows-like, or probably Altium-like). The standard mode UI is weird but surprisingly usable so I tend to do most of the layout work in standard mode and only switch to OpenGL to use push-and-shove to avoid major ripup-and-reroute cases and for diff-pairs/length matching.

What do you need the standard mode for? Serious question — I actually never used it, I only stay in OpenGL mode, so I don't know what I'm missing?
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