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Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

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Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#131

Post by behnamoh »

Agentlien wrote: post #112
behnamoh wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way I learned Dutch came from having a long-distance relationship with a girl from Belgium. When I was visiting her on vacation her family... > We have now lived together in Sweden for five years, we're married... And yet they say long-term relationships don't work :/

You have no idea how many times we were told that over the years. We met via an online game 13 years ago (pretty much before online dating was a well-known thing). I was 15 at the time. A lot of people wanted to "save us from the inevitable heartbreak". Thankfully, our parents were nothing but supportive and happy for us.

Glad to hear that :)

Man, you're lucky. A girl who's into computer and games, that's just rare as diamond.

All the more reason to play online games!

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#132

Post by gommm »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #74
westiseast wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask respectfully what you mean by fluent? Only because...the textbook definition and the colloquial definition differ. I think generally when people say 'fluent' they mean 'native speaker level at reading, writing and speaking language X', whereas fluent actually means you can speak without hesitation on a range of topics. Just a clarification, not an attack! Edit: Plus, I wouldn't knock wordlists. I started tr…

I also have a problem with the word "fluent". Ok you say you're fluent, here's a simple self-check: Explain to someone in the language you claim to be fluent in how you'd go about making a fire without any matches. (hint: you need to use words like tinder, kindling, flint, etc.). If you can't do this, or grapple with the fact that you don't have a repertoire of these words in your vocabulary, you might want to recons…

While I know the word kindling in English (which is a second language for me), I don't even know it in my native language... So, I don't think that's a good test.

I'd say that someone is fluent when he starts thinking in the language and is able to have everyday conversations with other people at normal speed without the native interlocutors feeling that they need to simplify their speech.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#133

Post by happyslobro »

dvcrn wrote: post #12

I'm fluent in German, English. I'm living in Japan and am almost fluent in Japanese and quarter fluent in Korean. I also recently started Hungarian and Spanish. The most important part in my opinion is to live in a country that speaks the language you want to learn. You have to immerse yourself as much as possible with the culture and language. Also very important that you aren't afraid to try to use what you learned…

As a guy who grew up in French immersion schools in Canada, I consider myself to be fluent in French, although my grammar isn't quite perfect. I don't mentally translate it to English in order to understand it, at any rate.

Recently, I took a short trip that included a few days in Paris, and I made a point of defaulting to French when starting conversations. However, for the most part, as soon as a French person realizes that French is not my first language, they switch the conversation to English, even if their English is worse than my French (according to my perception).

I wonder if this is unique to the culture of France, or at least Paris, that they do not like to hear their language from a foreigner? Maybe the language is part of a group identity, used to identify locals who can be trusted to follow local customs? It was a little saddening. In Africa and the Middle East however, when I am in predominantly French speaking communities, the locals seem quite happy to have conversations in French, even though our accents differ greatly.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#134

Post by ievahanordah »

westiseast wrote: post #41
dvcrn wrote: post #12

I'm fluent in German, English. I'm living in Japan and am almost fluent in Japanese and quarter fluent in Korean. I also recently started Hungarian and Spanish. The most important part in my opinion is to live in a country that speaks the language you want to learn. You have to immerse yourself as much as possible with the culture and language. Also very important that you aren't afraid to try to use what you learned…

Can I ask respectfully what you mean by fluent? Only because...the textbook definition and the colloquial definition differ. I think generally when people say 'fluent' they mean 'native speaker level at reading, writing and speaking language X', whereas fluent actually means you can speak without hesitation on a range of topics. Just a clarification, not an attack! Edit: Plus, I wouldn't knock wordlists. I started tr…

A lot of people can't speak without hesitation on a range of topics in their first language.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#135

Post by batbomb »

ced wrote: post #94
cgag wrote: post #56

I think the guy from fluentforever has the general pattern down correctly: 1) learn phonetics and pronunciation 2) learn a base of of the most common words (he has a list of 625 words, I think wikipedias "simple english" word requirements would be another good source). Do this with anki. 3) start studying grammar 4) move onto native materials (while continuing with anki) I also think that most people massively underr…

Totally agree on vocabulary, it's by far the most important part. You can mostly understand and be understood without grammar. I pick comic books in the target language, that I've already read in my native language, and start making word lists. Comic books are cool because obviously the pictures help, and the story will follow a theme, so the same words will come back over and over again. And they're not so long as t…

just an anecdote, but my grandpa learned english from comic books.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#136

Post by greggman »

j7ake wrote: post #95
westiseast wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask respectfully what you mean by fluent? Only because...the textbook definition and the colloquial definition differ. I think generally when people say 'fluent' they mean 'native speaker level at reading, writing and speaking language X', whereas fluent actually means you can speak without hesitation on a range of topics. Just a clarification, not an attack! Edit: Plus, I wouldn't knock wordlists. I started tr…

One test of fluency would be to have the person watch a modern film in the language of interest and ask them to transcribe the dialogue into text and also describe in own words (in language of interest) what is going on in the movie. You can then put that person on a scale from 0 to 100 by comparing the score by a random sample of "known" native speakers. This test is nice because it probes many aspects of language:…

It really depends on the film though. There are family dramas I can understand 100% but I watch a movie with lawyers or science or high level government or military meetings and I'm lost.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#137

Post by Mikeb85 »

happyslobro wrote: post #133
dvcrn wrote: post #12

I'm fluent in German, English. I'm living in Japan and am almost fluent in Japanese and quarter fluent in Korean. I also recently started Hungarian and Spanish. The most important part in my opinion is to live in a country that speaks the language you want to learn. You have to immerse yourself as much as possible with the culture and language. Also very important that you aren't afraid to try to use what you learned…

As a guy who grew up in French immersion schools in Canada, I consider myself to be fluent in French, although my grammar isn't quite perfect. I don't mentally translate it to English in order to understand it, at any rate. Recently, I took a short trip that included a few days in Paris, and I made a point of defaulting to French when starting conversations. However, for the most part, as soon as a French person real…

It's mainly so they can practice their English, or just what they're used to with most foreigners.

Leave the centre of Paris and they'll speak French, leave Paris and they won't speak English at all.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#138

Post by Mikeb85 »

rsmsky1 wrote: post #119
laichzeit0 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have a problem with the word "fluent". Ok you say you're fluent, here's a simple self-check: Explain to someone in the language you claim to be fluent in how you'd go about making a fire without any matches. (hint: you need to use words like tinder, kindling, flint, etc.). If you can't do this, or grapple with the fact that you don't have a repertoire of these words in your vocabulary, you might want to recons…

Is tinder a real word? I thought it was just a made up word for an app? I can't be expected to explain such words in another language when I can't explain them in my native language. But I think if you said spark instead that would be more reasonable such you need to rub two pieces of wood together and create a spark and then a fire starts.

Yes tinder is a real word. It's material used to kindle a fire.

Silicon valley has ruined all these words.

Then again, most people don't have to start fires.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#139

Post by _0ffh »

For pure language understanding, learn enough so you can start reading in that language. Then read. It's a great way for knowledge deepening and upkeep.

For pronunciation and accent there's probably nothing better than spending time with native speakers. In that scenario, don't stunt yourself by being afraid of making mistakes. People will understand.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#140

Post by Mikeb85 »

balakk wrote: post #128
guitarbill wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most important part in my opinion is to live in a country that speaks the language you want to learn. You have to immerse yourself as much as possible with the culture and language. Also very important that you aren't afraid to try to use what you learned. I cannot agree with this more. Coincidentally, I'm also fluent in German and English, and am learning Japanese. At school, I took French, but I hated it. It…

I am learning french as well, via Duolingo. Spoken french fries my brain, I just cant keep up. So many words seem to be pronounced the same way. And they speak so fast! For example, did they say: jeune Jaune john je une Je un Joan Je ont Jean Je ne .... Perhaps it's just an unconscious bias on my part. Just for reference, I am fluent in at least two more languages apart from my mother tongue.

Well half of those you can eliminate because they're grammatically incorrect or make no sense. (Je une = nonsense, unless you mean J'ai une whatever, but still, very different)

The others all have different pronunciations.

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