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Ask HN: I'm an old programmer, do I qualify for diversity consideration?

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Re: Ask HN: I'm an old programmer, do I qualify for diversity consideration?

#11

Post by Sevrene »

purple-dragon wrote: post #3

Serious question: are you trolling? I hire programmers for a startup. When I do, we do not care at all how old you are. We care about attitude, skills, and aptitude.

I think to some degree everyone is biased. Even if you say you don't care about age there's still some part of your mind that accounts for that when 'you' decide you like someone or not, whether that's negatively or positively.

Affirmative action isn't the solution either, because that's just introducing more bias into the equation. More discrimination cannot beget less discrimination in this case.

Re: Ask HN: I'm an old programmer, do I qualify for diversity consideration?

#12

Post by vogt »

Sevrene wrote: post #11
purple-dragon wrote: post #3

Serious question: are you trolling? I hire programmers for a startup. When I do, we do not care at all how old you are. We care about attitude, skills, and aptitude.

I think to some degree everyone is biased. Even if you say you don't care about age there's still some part of your mind that accounts for that when 'you' decide you like someone or not, whether that's negatively or positively. Affirmative action isn't the solution either, because that's just introducing more bias into the equation. More discrimination cannot beget less discrimination in this case.

It helps when you aren't in The San Francisco Bubble. I have hired programmers in cities that aren't as flush with talent (Dallas, for one example), and make no mistake: age made absolutely no difference. We just wanted good programmers. I think we'll see more of that in the US over the next few years, too.

Re: Ask HN: I'm an old programmer, do I qualify for diversity consideration?

#14

Post by gracenotes »

Maybe? The type of diversity that companies care about (to contrast with the many strawmen out there) happens to be good for the bottom line. That is, a team with 5 men and 5 women is likelier to perform better than one with 10 men [1]. Some explanations I have heard are that diversity brings perspective that wouldn't be present in a monoculture, and that it improves psychological safety which is a huge determiner of team performance [2]. There are models out there made by actual social scientists of why diversity helps. See [3] for instance, has both elements.

It does seem like age-based discrimination would have a negative effect on psychological safety, as with any discrimination due to conscious or unconscious biases. Regarding perspective, an experienced individual could either bring in valuable insight from their experience or constantly veer towards the status quo, partly depending on how you want to look at it.

I think the answer is: it is complicated. You now have my ideas on why diversity is valuable. Does age fit that model? (Even if not, of course, age-based discrimination is not good.)

[1] https://news.mit.edu/2014/workplace-diversity-can-help-botto... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/what-google-learn... [3] https://hbr.org/2013/12/how-diversity-can-drive-innovation [4] https://www.fastcompany.com/1841060/redefining-diversity-new... - bonus

Re: Ask HN: I'm an old programmer, do I qualify for diversity consideration?

#15

Post by source99 »

purple-dragon wrote: post #3

Serious question: are you trolling? I hire programmers for a startup. When I do, we do not care at all how old you are. We care about attitude, skills, and aptitude.

Swap out "at all how old you are" with "about your skin color".

Re: Ask HN: I'm an old programmer, do I qualify for diversity consideration?

#18

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc »

inyorgroove wrote: post #4
ddorian43 wrote: post #2

What about me? (I'm young but feel old from all the js-framework-of-the-week/pico-services(a service for every non-constant value) /docker-in-kubernetes-in-vm/golang mumbo-jumbo)

I empathize, we are migrating from flat systemd services to containers/kubernetes because its the new thing. I don't understand change for change sake is somewhat annoying and pointless.

Look at the bright side. Now that youre familiar with both, you have another skill to list on your resume, making yiu a slightly more attractive candidate in the job market.

Re: Ask HN: I'm an old programmer, do I qualify for diversity consideration?

#19

Post by jacquesm »

purple-dragon wrote: post #8
wyclif wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is an anecdotal comment. I'm glad to hear that your company doesn't engage in ageism, but just because you don't doesn't mean others embody the same cultural values. [EDIT] Relevant story from HN last year: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/64-year-old-engin...

Of course it is anecdotal. It has to be. There is no official, legal definition of diversity consideration in hiring. Nor is there any universal culture of applying it to hiring programmers. Edit: I certainly understand that this type of discrimination occurs... I just don't think that age is typically an active consideration for companies with mature/experienced management. We all know that "not a good culture fit"…

> I just don't think that age is typically an active consideration for companies with mature/experienced management.

That's spot on, now you have to wonder how many companies have such management and how many - unfortunately - do not.

Re: Ask HN: I'm an old programmer, do I qualify for diversity consideration?

#20

Post by bryanrasmussen »

ddorian43 wrote: post #2

What about me? (I'm young but feel old from all the js-framework-of-the-week/pico-services(a service for every non-constant value) /docker-in-kubernetes-in-vm/golang mumbo-jumbo)

I'm 113 in web-dev years.
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