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Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

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161–170 of 178 posts

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with you that: >and can impinge upon the simulations at any time A simulation could just be some states. Consider the rule, double and subtract one to get to the next world-state, over the integers, and start the world with the state 1. So the next state is 1. The one after is also 1. The one after is also 1. The universe is stuck in a static state. As I, you, or a Python script is modeling this universe,…

Reminds me of a short story called Luminous by Greg Egan. In that story the universe is a declarative system that does have a non-pseudo random component to it -- with actual reality being an emergent phenomenon between this declarative model and the entities within exploring that model by causing the universe to imbue the mathematical objects implied by the universe with specific reality by actually computing them,…

This is really, really interesting. As I don't have access to the book just now, could you expand (by editing) your comment a little, your summary is very dense. I realize you might not remember it all exactly but it's really interesting to me.

EDIT: Thanks for the expansion! Fascinating and really interesting idea. The idea, "There is an existential difference between a mathematical truth and a specific occurrence of the 'pattern' described by that truth within the physical material of the universe" is a fascinating one.

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if you agree. Some of the world's 7 billion people likely believe that minds are like souls in a parallel ethereal plane and they could be severed, float around for a while, be attached to some other person and so forth. Regardless of whether anyone believes that it is just not true and conscienceness is an emergent propery of the person having it, and it doesn't really matter whether you or anyone…

How can you be so confident? You have no proof of this (or at least have not demonstrated it) and are simply going on faith which is exactly what someone who says that consciousness comes from the soul is doing. And even if consciousness is an emergent property of the structure of the brain, how could we have a simulated brain report that it is experiencing consciousness when we cant define what it is in the first pl…

Suppose you couldn't define flight, and I said, of course flight is possible since birds fly so it would be possible to fly, flight is just the sum of the mechanical motions that it entails - whereas you claimed no, no, it's some kind of magic that Hermes, the god of flight deigns to imbue some creatures with. Even if you exactly copied every last muscle twitch in a bird with a mechanical version of the same, you claimed, there is no guarantee that Hermes would play along and magically make it fly, it could be an earthbound mechanical object, or even if it did appear to fly, since we don't have a good definition of flight how would we even know if it's really flying? It could just be appearing to fly but, since in our mythology Hermes doesn't make mechanical things fly, it really isn't flying...

it's not something that is even worth discussing. of course if you made an emulated version of a brain in a VR with the same structure and neurological action and it reported consciousness, then it would be conscious, of course, yes. This is like asking whether NES games can "really" be running in a browser, even if the browser is emulating an NES system and includes the code of the original cartridge. Is the game "really" running? Can you "really" play it? Meaningless questions. If the VR person with the same brain topology as a human and hundreds of billions of neurons reports consciousness then of course it has it. why would being emulated suddenly make it different from all 7 billion humans running natively in the world, especially if theoretically it could be compiled from the same source code (which we have a copy of, DNA was sequenced in full in the 90s).

Since my comment was about a thousand years out, there's no question and we don't need to discuss these things. It's open and shut. I don't need to give any citations.

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#163
post #6

It kind of irks me that they basically assume a cubic lattice. Nature does not form cubic lattices, when nature forms a lattice (for example, in a foam) it tends to form roughly dodecahedral cells (with coordination number 12). Given this property, a space-time lattice would be very nearly isotropic.

It kind of irks me that they basically assume 3+1- space-time.

That's pretty natural since it is extremely hard to recover the inverse square law (for gravitation and electromagnetism) from any configuration of spacetime, assuming large dimensions (large compared to the Planck length).

Ehrenfest and Weyl showed this as early as 1920 and 1922, respectively.

3+1 is also baked into the Minkowski metric by the latter's definition, which leads to the Poincaré group being the isometry group on local patches of spacetime; the Poincaré group is a subgroup of the Standard Model, and is extremely well tested in controlled, laboratory settings (and supported by an abundance of observational evidence too).

Extra dimensions of spacetime have to be small compared to the Planck length in order not to be obvious today. For all practical purposes, if such tiny dimensions exist, we can safely omit them from effective theoretical descriptions of everyday physics, just like we can ignore things like very large extra dimensions where the smallest step one can take is much bigger than the Hubble diameter.

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#164
post #103
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly? I can see why one would want to assume that an entity that can simulate a universe would be able to know more than the collective ability of that simulation, but on the other hand, we simulate things and learn unexpected results from our simulations. I think it's entirely feasible that a simulation can generate more knowledge, or different knowledge, than exists outside the simulation.

Certainly, but the idea that some hyper intelligent entity would develop the tech to build a universe-scale finite element simulator without groking anti-aliasing along the way is simply absurd. Bresenham's algorithm is a big deal because it's essentially the first thing everyone needs to invent when they start trying to render continuous processes on a discrete grid.

Where would you introduce the trajectory-correcting algorithm?

In General Relativity, fundamental particles are simply taking shortest paths through spacetime, and where there are multiple short paths, the one that extremizes the timelike distance is favoured.

In a perturbative theory of gravitation, you introduce corrections on the particles by way of graviton interactions.

Worse, whether a local patch of energy-density amounts to a particle is observer-dependent; in both approaches above an accelerated observer sees more particles than an unaccelerated one does. That includes more gravitons in the latter approach.

It would be a lot of work to write down a theory in which particles (whose count isn't global) decide on corrections to their own trajectories that return themselves to a path similar to one along a smooth manifold even though they are "really" travelling along a non-smooth one, so long as you are trying to match well-tested results of General Relativity. (A theory which doesn't reproduce those results is maybe an interesting toy; "cheating" by using a nearly-but-not-quite minimal length that has no direct observables is an uninteresting toy, and is not really a good argument for the existence of Simulators (or Creator Gods or whatever).)

In particular, the non-linear contributions of gravity will likely lead you into an explosion in the amount of knowledge that a particle would have to acquire in order to assess its trajectory; you'd probably also want to propose an explanation of how it goes about adjusting its trajectory when it discovers it's not on the "right" one. Don't forget to make this correct for all possible observers, including the ones that will see no particle and those that will see two or more particles.

In practice, attempts to do away with infinitesimals of length that do not clearly fail to reproduce known physics also tend to produce infinities of state in matter and/or additional gauge fields, and the infinities don't succumb to information-reduction techniques like renormalization by power-set counting.

If you're looking to encode that knowledge somewhere, like in a spacetime-permeating field, the gravitational field of General Relativity is right there and already serving that purpose in a non-toy theory that (in explorable parts of the known universe) behaves completely correctly with quantum field theories of matter, including The Standard Model. :-)

Best of all, in a block universe model, the whole thing is "pre-rendered", and there is no difference between the block universe model and an initial-values-surface formalism in the presence of determinism. So you only have to fully render one frame, and you get all the others, past and future. (Quantum mechanics as we know it is deterministic -- that's unitarity.)

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it?

Yep, it's expanding symmetrically in all directions in that the distances may increase between bodies but the masses such as suns and planets do not grow. http://nautil.us/blog/the-universe-expanding-symmetrically-a...

Introducing more edges with your dodecahedral (or an icosahedral or some large-n polytope) cell worsens the edge-vs-face problem below, because a "cell shape" discretizes rotation and we have excellent evidence that rotation is smooth in our spacetime.

Small regions of our spacetime are locally Lorentz-invariant, meaning that a number of observable quantities (magnitude of angular momentum and mass are two) do not change for a particle held at the origin of a system of coordinates as the particle is arbitrarily rotated or boosted.

Arbitrariness is important. If we are observing a distant and predictable multifrequency radiator and define spherical coordinates with the radiator at the origin, then any movement our observation gear makes that isn't exclusively radial is equivalent to a rotation of the distant radiator. You can do this by holding the radiator at the (spacelike) origin, and the observer at its fixed (spatial) coordinates; in order to keep these coordinates constant, you have to rotate the system of coordinates to counter wholly non-radial relative movement. At large distances, the rotation at the origin becomes extremely small. Small or large, Lorentz invariance means the radiator has the same mass (it's by definition rest mass since it's always at the coordinates [0,0,0,t]) and momentum.

So arbitrarily small rotation goes hand-in-hand with arbitrarily distant observers, and also with nearer observers who can displace themselves tiny amounts.

So is there a minimum rotation?

The arbitrariness of rotation is a in conflict with "cell shape", as when your "cell" distinguishes between edges and faces, the discrete nature of rotated mass-energy-momentum exposed through the (corner-filled, discrete) cell structure leads to different observables under rotation compared to that of the (smooth, continuous) spacetime of (either theory of) relativity. This deviation is larger for objects of higher momentum; and remembering Einstein's relation for rest-massless particles, E = pc = \hbar\omega = h / \lambda, that means that for different-wavelength photons emitted from the same source, the higher-frequency photons will arrive later than the lower-frequency ones. We have good observational evidence against frequency-dependent arrival times from bright distant objects (supernovas, gamma-ray bursts, even millisecond pulsars).

We can conceive of a "cell shape" which is uniform under infinitesimal rotations, but at that point you have shifted one set of infinitesimals to another, and in the context of this topic (a simulation that among other things saves on state by abolishing real numbers in dimensions of length, rotation, boost and/or translation) is pretty much a non-winner.

(Additionaly, ignoring the simulation context, you would also almost always run into difficulties if your "cell size" -- a minimum length in space or a minimal interval in spacetime -- is large enough to produce observables.)

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming unlimited computational resources. At some point the computer required is bigger than the universe and exceeds the limits of what our current knowledge of physics and cosmology allows us to speculate about in any kind of meaningful way. I actually believe that a computer with human level intelligence and consciousness will be possible - but only because it won't need to be as messy as real human mind…

If the idea is that our universe is a simulation then its state is, by definition, represented by a finite subset of the state of the simulating universe. In other words, yes, it would be a computer bigger than our universe, in the same way we simulate a universe smaller than ours on one of our computers today.

It's turtles all the way up. Or in this case It's Turing Machines all the way up.

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#167
post #61
post #54

On a semi-serious note, I've always had this nagging feeling ever since I first heard of Planck time and Planck length. Why would there be a lower limit to the resolution of the universe, unless there was something spooky going on? (I know they're just theoretical, but...)

I'm not a physicist, so I'm speaking as 100% layman, but I can better accept a fixed-resolution universe, where forces have a certain magnitude and beyond them (in either direction, smaller or larger) matter doesn't behave in productive ways. For a long time, we thought atoms were these building blocks; now we think it's quarks; the Standard Model does a pretty good job at relating all observed phenomena to each othe…

That's a good question you asked.

The Standard Model has as a subgroup the Poincaré group, which is the isometry group of flat spacetime, which is both the (global) spacetime of Special Relativity and is the local spacetime of General Relativity for a pretty narrow definition of local, although we regularly construct Local Inertial Frames which are regions of spacetime that are so approximately flat that the difference is negligible.

The Poincaré group has as a subgroup the Lorentz group, and its generators include rotations about the three spacelike axes of Minkowski (i.e., flat) spacetime.

The other symmetries of the Standard Model are invariant under these rotations.

A distant observer moving transversely relative to a particle observes a tiny rotation of the particle. The particle's fundamental properties do not change under that rotation, which can be arbitarily small.

Rather than descending into group theory to reason about a minimum translation or boost, we can look to the energy-mass-momentum equivalence E_r^2 = (m_0 c^2)^2 + (pc)^2 and focus in on photons so we can ignore the m_0 term. Here we have E = E_r = (pc) = \hbar\omega = hc/\lambda = hf. Photons come at arbitrary frequencies, and we have good blackbody radiators all across our sky. If there were a minimal length scale, we would expect that derivatives of position would incorporate that minimal length, and so we would impose observables on things like the doppler shift, for example if we accelerate in a straight line towards a radiator emitting extremely high energy photons.

So it's not so much "why wouldn't it have" but rather, "Q: does observation or experiment support a minimum scale that is large compared to the Planck scale for spacetime intervals in our universe? A: no"

The answers for minimum length et al. scales that are small compared to the Planck scale are subtler (essentially by definition of the Planck scale, at those scales quantum corrections to account for gravitation become significant, spoiling the observability of short spacetime intervals) but so far still 'no'. For every particle in the universe there can be an (ultrarelativistic) observer who sees the particle wavelength shrink below the Planck length; there is nothing special about this observer -- there is likewise a possible observer who sees the particle at some much longer wavelength -- and the point of relativity is that neither observer is more correct than the other. Furthermore, if the former type of observer manages to see a star ultra-blueshifted and extremely Lorentz-FitzGerald-contracted, that observer does not create a black hole; no event horizon forms (event horizons are a global feature of the causal structure of spacetime[0]), and so we can turn an argument about Planck length into an argument about localized Planck energy: there is nothing obviously special in spacetime about the Planck scale. However, our ultrarelativistic observer will certainly see some very strange stuff courtesy of the Unruh effect: different observers observe different particle counts, and one would expect our observer would see an explosion in the number of particles compared to a more typical observer, and those particles -- like all others -- will also interact gravitationally, and we don't know yet how to decomplicate the picture enough to do useful calculations on them.

[0] different observers may disagree on precisely where the event horizon is, what its shape is, and even the count and energy of the particles just outside the event horizon. but they will all agree that there is an event horizon.

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#168
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"really big" and "really detailed" is relative. We have no absolute scale to measure against. Our 10^80 particle universe (or whatever the number is) could live in an 10^8000 particle one. So our whole universe could literally be contained in something as "big" as a grain of sand in the host universe.

Yes, I'm referring to big and detailed relative to what we can simulate with foreseeable technology. Sure, we can see how to maybe simulate a universe the size of a cell, and a much much larger universe could maybe simulate everything in ours. But in either case, the larger universe is going to view the smaller one as a simplification.

If I'm running Linux in a VM, I don't think of it as a simplification-- but it is way easier to just shut it off and reinstall if something goes wrong.

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you be so confident? You have no proof of this (or at least have not demonstrated it) and are simply going on faith which is exactly what someone who says that consciousness comes from the soul is doing. And even if consciousness is an emergent property of the structure of the brain, how could we have a simulated brain report that it is experiencing consciousness when we cant define what it is in the first pl…

Suppose you couldn't define flight, and I said, of course flight is possible since birds fly so it would be possible to fly, flight is just the sum of the mechanical motions that it entails - whereas you claimed no, no, it's some kind of magic that Hermes, the god of flight deigns to imbue some creatures with. Even if you exactly copied every last muscle twitch in a bird with a mechanical version of the same, you cla…

So let's say that perhaps biological neurons are an antenna which picks up on a universal consciousness energy field and imbues consciousness into a brain and that thus far, or even 1000 years from now, this property has gone undetected. Simulating the known properties of the brain may make a program that functions in all respects like a brain but does not have consciousness. It might report that it has consciousness because that is some function of another property of the simulation however in this case we would know that it is not true.

I find it amusing that you think a topic as widely studied and disputed as consciousness is "open and shut" because of some assumptions that you choose to make. Nonetheless, I do appreciate hearing your perspective so thank you.

Re: Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation (2012)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose you couldn't define flight, and I said, of course flight is possible since birds fly so it would be possible to fly, flight is just the sum of the mechanical motions that it entails - whereas you claimed no, no, it's some kind of magic that Hermes, the god of flight deigns to imbue some creatures with. Even if you exactly copied every last muscle twitch in a bird with a mechanical version of the same, you cla…

So let's say that perhaps biological neurons are an antenna which picks up on a universal consciousness energy field and imbues consciousness into a brain and that thus far, or even 1000 years from now, this property has gone undetected. Simulating the known properties of the brain may make a program that functions in all respects like a brain but does not have consciousness. It might report that it has consciousness…

Yes, I may be butchering this (didn't read the link below) but perhaps in Descartes's philosophy the pineal gland is like a connection to the soul, sure, like an antenna to an ethereal world, in a physical organ.

I completely discount this possibility and think it's not worth discussing. So, you are right that my mind is very closed to any alternatives to what I've stated, though as in your example of an antenna, we could describe such alternatives rigorously. Not worth our time. (IMO). Thanks for the replies.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pineal-gland/

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