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Facebook Has Repeatedly Trended Fake News Since Firing Its Human Editors

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Re: Facebook Has Repeatedly Trended Fake News Since Firing Its Human Editors

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Many modern political issues do not have a middle ground - take abortion, you are either for choice, or you believe it is infanticide. So let's stop pretending to be unbiased. You're falling into the trap of American politics by making every issue a binary choice. For instance, I find the abortion debate to be such a non-issue and if someone asks me what my stance is, I respond by saying I haven't done enough resear…

How does having known unknowns help our leaders to establish policies? I respect the want to not have a stance - but having no stance is not a way in which a decision can be made.

Instead of immediately having to take a stance, leaders can carefully consider all all the information and make a reasoned, rational decision.

Also, there's no fear of being labeled a flip-flopper (which is stupid. It's way worse to stick to your guns, so to speak, if new information comes to light.)

Re: Facebook Has Repeatedly Trended Fake News Since Firing Its Human Editors

#322
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Many modern political issues do not have a middle ground - take abortion, you are either for choice, or you believe it is infanticide. So let's stop pretending to be unbiased. You're falling into the trap of American politics by making every issue a binary choice. For instance, I find the abortion debate to be such a non-issue and if someone asks me what my stance is, I respond by saying I haven't done enough resear…

death is binary

There are those people who have been dead by all medical definitions and returned to life.

Also, you could argue that people in vegetative states where there is little to know brain activity, are somewhere between life and death.

Re: Facebook Has Repeatedly Trended Fake News Since Firing Its Human Editors

#323
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should note that you have the luxury to even consider the issue of abortion because you've already been born.

That's so incoherent that I can't even tell which position you're arguing.

I'm stating a fact. One important reason why anyone of us is able to have a stance on the issue, is that we've not been aborted. I understand a pro-choice position, it is pragmatical to allow abortions up to the fourth month, but the hard truth is that all the unique "code" required to build any of us was created during mitosis after conception. That particular combination is unique. That particular genetic combination is lost in an abortion.

If Bach had not been born, one of his brothers would be the composer?... Same for Einstein?

Re: Facebook Has Repeatedly Trended Fake News Since Firing Its Human Editors

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pity you're downvoted here, as you're raising some good points. Yes, the activity would be quite incendiary, though that's somewhat the case for the news as it is. There is Project Censored, at Sonoma State University in California, which looks at under-reported stories. Cults and their own belief systems is a whole 'nother fascinating area. Have you written on your own experiences on this? On questions and answers I…

> Pity you're downvoted here, as you're raising some good points. I'm beginning to believe the slightest hint of negativity encourages downvotes irrespective of whether the context is appropriate or not. > Cults and their own belief systems is a whole 'nother fascinating area. Have you written on your own experiences on this? A little. Getting out of a cult you're born into is an experience like no other. Many people…

Leaving cults: I've heard some accounts. One particular dynamic is that leaving a cult you're born into is profoundly different from leaving a cult you joined. In the former case, you made a committment to it, and were converted. In the latter, the cult is all you've ever known, and it is normality. On the other hand, looking outside of it, you may find specific discrepencies.

The tendency for new adherents and converts to just about anything to become more Catholic than the Pope, as they say, is fairly strong.

The process of leaving plays into another Dreddit essay I've had in mind for a while, on the concept of Enlightenment, Revelation, and Catastrophe, all three words which have a common base meaning: of a thing having light shone upon it, being revealed, uncloaked, or overturned. There's a modern mystic who's got a brief quote about enlightenment not being pleasant: "Make no mistake about it -- enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or becoming happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretense. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true."

Of course, another option is to replace one mythical system with another....

The Dreddit: I think "philosophical work in process" is truer than I'd care. On the positive side, I've got a sense of the size of the canvas. On the negative side, it's rather large for any one person to work. Explaining to those close to me what it's about and where it's leading is increasingly problematic.... On the practical side, it's been difficult to hash out a proper working environment for writing complex bits. At the same time, I've been exploring a large scope of literature that illuminates various parts of the puzzle in interesting ways. There has been much enlightenment going on (and frustration with conventional understanding). I'm finding to a very large extent that the ideas I'm having are not novel, merely not widely accepted. Frequently they're widely attacked.

Governance: Government is inherently a system for ajudicating differences of opinion, so it's often going to be contradictory. Human society is a complex system, and the needs of any one part are often at conflict with those of another, though the system as a whole should be benefited by some balance of interests. A modern kitchen has spigots, drains, a refrigerator, and a stove. This doesn't mean that sources or sinks or cold or hot are good or bad. It's that each has an appropriate place.

People's interests are frequently rivalrous. Government helps balance those interests.

Mind all that, getting some sense of what is or isn't in the ultimate common interest is a really good thing to have, and I don't think we've got that. A tremendous number of my questions come down to "what's good, what's bad", which then requires some basis for determining what is good or bad. In AI there's concern over numerous aspects, one of which is the Paperclip Maximiser scenario: even an otherwise benign AI whose only directive is to maximise creation of paperclips is ultimately an existential threat. Our social goal measures -- GDP, profit, etc., seem problematic. There are other measures of net function, White's Law (total energy throughput) comes to mind. Balancing present and future flows is another.

Complexity of legislation and legal matters is yet another element, though of course, that complexity feeds on itself as it keeps the lawyers in pay.

Assessing narratives: It's not enough to have internal consistency, you also need to have accurate anchors to reality. What drives me most nuts is conspiracy theory crud that's got some foundational basis. There's an example, "It's all a Rich Man's Game", a ~3h 40m YouTube video which connects the 2007/8 financial crisis, 9/11, the Bushes, JFK, WWII, Hitler, etc., etc., into one continuous narrative. There are parts that are actually quite unambiguously true (corporate America's involvement and collaboration with Nazi Germany: IBM, GM, Ford, AT&T, Coca-Cola, and more) for example. But there are also parts that are utterly fabricated (or at least for which I could find no documentation) and others for which either false connections were drawn or very selective quotation was used (JFK's "Secret Society" speech -- about the USSR, not some dark Skull and Bones society plot). I didn't find any known-to-me contradictions until about 20 minutes in, but then they started popping up all over, and there may well be earlier ones. I'll look up vargas's posts....

There's also a reason I feel reputation has to be part of any widespread assessment system. If you've got a source who's known to propogate bullshit, then you do not trust them by default. If someone you do trust says "actually, this looks like it has merits", you might change your mind. The question of who you do trust is an interesting one, as trust can be (and will be) betrayed. But in general it's food for a while. Admissions of error are another crucial element (a chief reason I refuse to engage at length with those who cannot do so).

There's also the question of story relevance. To pluck from current headlines, I turned away from the BBC a day or so back when they insisted on spending 10+ minutes discussing the "clown scare". I don't find that to be worth however many millions of global ears the BBC might claim, and there are other stories worth covering.

On Matrix & cross-validation: I actually think diving in to minutiae is the wrong approach. It's attractive, and sometimes yields benefits, but also seems to be a common trait of the crackpot. Instead, get multiple accounts from multiple witnesses and compare them. To take a Biblical instance, there's the story of Susanna from the Book of Daniel: a bathing wife is accused by lecherous voyeurs of adultry after refusing sex with them. She is about to be put to death when Daniel insists on questioning the accusers, separately. They proceed to identify different (and very-different sized) trees under which she met her supposed lover. Susanna is set free and the accusers executed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susanna_(Book_of_Daniel)

I've had my own similar experiences in examining stories from others, sometimes multiple people, sometimes the same.

Podesta emails: Another interesting situation. Here you've got the subtle conspiracist's dream: a vast trove of documents from which either slight alteration or selective quotation can prove highly destructive. It's a primary reason why I'm leary of having an extensive online trove of billions of people's mundane activities. The size of the trove itself makes ready assessment difficult (the Panama Papers and other similar leaks have much the same problem), unless you can find a specific narrative thread OR a specific critical moment or element within the documents to make your case.

Some years ago I found myself part to a legal proceeding in which the opposing party was accusing my side of specific actions, though with little other than testimonial evidence. What the other side didn't realise was that my team had access (and evidentiary claim) to a large document archive which established motive and lack of credibility. From a set of many thousands of documents, defending counsel presented three documents. Witness for the plaintif first established that the documents were theirs (credibility). The next two presented the crucial evidence necessary to utterly demolish the case. The key I took from this was that if you can get to the very heart of the matter, that's often all you need.

In the Podesta case, I've seen one instance where a published opinion piece (not written by Podesta) was claimed by Wikileaks and Trump supporters to have been Podesta's own words. They quite manifestly weren't (fully independent verification trivially possible), which impugns the credibility of Trump's team (hardly necessary) and Wikileaks (a massive blunder and mis-step on their part) tremendously.

A particular risk of mass document dumps is the Gish Gallop. In my courtroom case, courtroom discipline itself imposed harsh limits on testimony: you've only a few brief hours in many instances, and going beyond this with exhaustive documentation frequently isn't possible. There are exceptions to this rule, but those are very well-funded trials (and quite expensive). The ability of a disinterested third party to impose that discipline is crucial.

Good thoughts again.

Re: Facebook Has Repeatedly Trended Fake News Since Firing Its Human Editors

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does having known unknowns help our leaders to establish policies? I respect the want to not have a stance - but having no stance is not a way in which a decision can be made.

Instead of immediately having to take a stance, leaders can carefully consider all all the information and make a reasoned, rational decision. Also, there's no fear of being labeled a flip-flopper (which is stupid. It's way worse to stick to your guns, so to speak, if new information comes to light.)

I agree that our leaders should have nuanced stances and be able to step back as you suggest. But you suggested that you were okay with you not having a position.

And again - in general, that's absolutely fine! But government leaders in the US are representatives of 'we the people'. If they cannot gauge what we feel then they have no way of representing us in such a way that aligns with our feelings.

That said I believe that your point of not taking a stance totally offers up much more calm and nuanced discussions than extreme stances on any side of an issue - and is very probably a very useful position!

Re: Facebook Has Repeatedly Trended Fake News Since Firing Its Human Editors

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How are the numbers taken out of context? The numbers lack context in that they don't specify a rate, merely a value. It makes it sound like 70K women are attacked each year by undocumented immigrants, when the reality is that the number is closer to 1.27K per year since 1955. Let's do some back of the napkin math: There are about 11 million undocumented immigrants in the US, meaning that the rate of sexual assault…

The numbers don't claim to specify a rate - that was your inference. Also, your numbers seem to demonstrate the exact dishonesty that you accuse Breitbart of doing. The number cited for illegal aliens is the number of arrests. The number you cite for the general population is a victimization survey which includes a lot of alleged rapes that were never reported to the police. (In fact, I can't even figure out if all o…

You are correct about the arrested vs reported thing. I don't know how I missed that. Still, that brings them in line with the general population. You're also right about Mexican food and women. (Full disclosure, I'm married to a Mexican woman.)

Re: Facebook Has Repeatedly Trended Fake News Since Firing Its Human Editors

#327
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and sadly not limited to the US. One of the things I (eventually) realised is that here in the UK The Guardian is equivalent to The Daily Mail, but for liberal intelligentsia instead of Conservatives and UKIP supporters.

The Guarniad has become mostly opinion click/outrage bait, and then they wonder why people are turning away in droves.

This is certainly what I see a lot of in peoples' social media feeds, to the point where it's become somewhat ridiculous.

Re: Facebook Has Repeatedly Trended Fake News Since Firing Its Human Editors

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When has the Graun published bald-faced lies? It has an editorial slant, for sure, but it's not a fountain of factual untruth.

I've seen this idea pushed a ton recently, especially over on /r/ukpolitics and it seems like nonsense. I think the idea stems from the way the Graun has opened up it's 'Comment is Free' section which has lead to quite a few low quality opinion pieces particularly 'SJW' esq ones. The actual reporting from the Gruan is still good quality in my opinion, certainly head and shoulders above the DMs. And whilst the Graun h…

I think that's exactly it, and those are certainly what I see filtering into peoples' social media posts, and many seem at least as toxic as the average Daily Mail piece.
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