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The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

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Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#261

Post by cb18 »

v64 wrote: post #256
wildmusings wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mitt Romney was a very good candidate, except for his ultimate lack of fight. If you really believe that women and minorities don't have equal rights, then I can only urge you to dig a little deeper. Gender wage discrimination is a made-up problem, the statistics that you hear don't control for career choice, hours-worked, positions-sought, etc. The problem with our police force is that it's not professionalized once…

I agree with you, Romney has been relatively much more sane than other Republicans. I would have even voted for him if he was able to run as Massachusetts Governor Romney and not Pandering to the Insane Right Wing Romney. But he's certainly an outlier among the present class of Republicans. I think the Republican Party's pro-life position to be discriminatory against women. No one can force you to be an organ donor.…

No one can force you to be an organ donor. Even if donating your organs would save someone's life, you have autonomy over your body and you are allowed to decline to be an organ donor. How is abortion any different?

An organ is a component of a body. A baby is an entire human life form. You can't take an organ out of a body and have it grow up to be a poet or an astronaut.

If a baby in the womb is simply "a woman's body," what about the 50% of genetic material from the father?

I think the Republican Party's pro-life position to be discriminatory against women.

How is it discriminatory against women? Women are the only sex that gestate. Opponents of abortion simply feel that much abortion is highly questionable ethically and feel that a society's treatment of the weakest and most defenseless among them speaks much about the character of their society. If men gestated they'd feel the same way.

In modern society women do have complete autonomous control over their bodies in determining whether or not to become pregnant.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#263

Post by ehudla »

Two famous laureates are Sartre and Bertrand Russell. Both wrote more in more conventional genres for the prize, but most think the prize was awarded not simply for the literary quality of their work.

Another thread connecting their awards with Dylan is that all three authored widely read and acclaimed autobiographies or memoirs.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#264

Post by [deleted] »

rdiddly wrote: post #235
kristianc wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite - as a strategy by Republican politicians (and Democrats before that) it predates Trump by quite a long way.

I hear a whooshing sound. Reductio ad Trumperum or something similar (I'm not real 'up' on my Latin grammar) would presumably mean "reduce to Trump." You know, like summing up a complex & nuanced issue in terms of how it supposedly relates to Trump. You're saying people have been doing this -- as a -strategy- mind you -- since before Trump existed?

[deleted]

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#265

Post by triangleman »

kristianc wrote: post #243
rdiddly wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear a whooshing sound. Reductio ad Trumperum or something similar (I'm not real 'up' on my Latin grammar) would presumably mean "reduce to Trump." You know, like summing up a complex & nuanced issue in terms of how it supposedly relates to Trump. You're saying people have been doing this -- as a -strategy- mind you -- since before Trump existed?

That's not what it means. Reductio ad 'X' means assigning guilt by association to X. I don't feel like I really need to make the actions of the Republican Party in the 1960s in the south (yes - southern strategy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy ) any more wrong by associating them with Trump. Lynchings kind of speak for themselves. Do I think that Trump is drawing on the same political tradition by '…

I think what 1337biz was trying to point out is that mentioning trump sullied your point. Perhaps it was impossible to make your original comment without mentioning trump, but now you have "Godwin'd" your argument in a way, and have precluded any room for nuance in either discussing Bob Dylan, or the current political environment. Now it's all Southern Strategy -> Bob Dylan -> Trump.

Sure, Trump has tapped into a certain political current that has long existed in American life (since at least Andrew Jackson), but there are other reasons for his (un)popularity and are worth understanding in their own right.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#266

Post by v64 »

cb18 wrote: post #261
v64 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, Romney has been relatively much more sane than other Republicans. I would have even voted for him if he was able to run as Massachusetts Governor Romney and not Pandering to the Insane Right Wing Romney. But he's certainly an outlier among the present class of Republicans. I think the Republican Party's pro-life position to be discriminatory against women. No one can force you to be an organ donor.…

No one can force you to be an organ donor. Even if donating your organs would save someone's life, you have autonomy over your body and you are allowed to decline to be an organ donor. How is abortion any different? An organ is a component of a body. A baby is an entire human life form. You can't take an organ out of a body and have it grow up to be a poet or an astronaut. If a baby in the womb is simply "a woman's b…

I think you missed the point of my analogy on abortion. Let's say there's someone you know who's going to die in 24 hours if she doesn't get a kidney transplant. She's too far down on the list to get one in that timeframe. Out of all the people she knows that have been tested, you're the only one who's a match.

If you donate your kidney, she lives. If you don't donate your kidney, she dies. Either way, the government cannot compel you to donate your kidney to save her life. You can say "This is my body, my choice" and the woman dies.

Same with abortion. The woman makes a choice about her body, the baby dies. This isn't the government's business.

> Opponents of abortion simply feel that much abortion is highly questionable ethically and feel that a society's treatment of the weakest and most defenseless among them speaks much about the character of their society.

Then by that logic, they should be arguing for organ donation to be mandatory.

> In modern society women do have complete autonomous control over their bodies in determining whether or not to become pregnant.

Tell that to a woman who gets pregnant from being raped.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#267

Post by tnecniv »

duaneb wrote: post #151
pjmorris wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keith Richards and his school buddy, Mick Jagger, bonded by nerding out over American folk music ('Life' is a fun read), including both rhythm and blues and the kind of hillbilly stuff Dylan refers to. So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. It's kind of amazing how rock and roll became so much greater when it was exported and imported.

> So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. Do you hear this in any of their work? I only hear it in "Rocky Racoon", which is one of my least favorite beatles songs as a result. I can't say I'm a fan of Stones-style rock and roll. I'd prefer Led Zeppelin; much less caterwauling and more music.

Speaking of Led Zeppelin:

The Crunge is a James Brown tribute. When the Levee breaks references the American Blues tradition pretty explicitly (I'm going to Chicago). In My Time of Dying is an old gospel tune from Louisana. Dazed and Confused was a cover of an American blues tune, etc.

Clapton was a similar story. He's the first to say his biggest inspiration was Robert Johnson.

The Beatles had a much stronger US influence in their earlier work than their later work. They had multiple singles that were Chuck Berry covers.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#268

Post by genericpseudo »

duaneb wrote: post #212
throwawayrocker wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same Led Zeppelin that borrowed all those American blues and country riffs throughout their career? If you educate yourself on American music from the 20s-50s you'll realize the true extent of the influence on the British music of the 60s and 70s. It's a lot more than Rocky Raccoon but if you're ignorant of country music you're not going to hear the guitar licks, drum patterns and vocal inflections that show up i…

> The same Led Zeppelin that borrowed all those American blues and country riffs throughout their career? I see that easily, it's the folk influence I have a (harder) time with.

Tangerine? Bron-yr-Aur Stomp? Stairway? They had Sandy "Fairport Convention" Denny as a guest singer.

Led Zep are absolutely in the English folk tradition – distinct but related to the American scene – as well as the blues one.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#269

Post by genericpseudo »

duaneb wrote: post #151
pjmorris wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keith Richards and his school buddy, Mick Jagger, bonded by nerding out over American folk music ('Life' is a fun read), including both rhythm and blues and the kind of hillbilly stuff Dylan refers to. So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. It's kind of amazing how rock and roll became so much greater when it was exported and imported.

> So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. Do you hear this in any of their work? I only hear it in "Rocky Racoon", which is one of my least favorite beatles songs as a result. I can't say I'm a fan of Stones-style rock and roll. I'd prefer Led Zeppelin; much less caterwauling and more music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skiffle#Revival_in_the_United_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quarrymen

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#270

Post by ternaryoperator »

ehudla wrote: post #263

Two famous laureates are Sartre and Bertrand Russell. Both wrote more in more conventional genres for the prize, but most think the prize was awarded not simply for the literary quality of their work. Another thread connecting their awards with Dylan is that all three authored widely read and acclaimed autobiographies or memoirs.

It's important to note that Sartre refused the Nobel Prize because he felt that a writer should not be part of an institution. That's a moral courage that's rarely seen.
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