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The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

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Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#161
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keith Richards and his school buddy, Mick Jagger, bonded by nerding out over American folk music ('Life' is a fun read), including both rhythm and blues and the kind of hillbilly stuff Dylan refers to. So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. It's kind of amazing how rock and roll became so much greater when it was exported and imported.

> So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. Do you hear this in any of their work? I only hear it in "Rocky Racoon", which is one of my least favorite beatles songs as a result. I can't say I'm a fan of Stones-style rock and roll. I'd prefer Led Zeppelin; much less caterwauling and more music.

Well, you hear it in Led Zeppelin, too. While the members were heavily influenced by the blues artists of the time, songs like "gallows pole" and "Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" and "Hey hey what can I do?" show that influence. They also have a variety of songs heavily influenced by the Rockabilly genre, which also has a folk-roots influence. "Hot Dog", "boogie with stu", and "Candy Store Rock" all count in that regard.

Rock and Roll has key influence from both the folk traditions, and the blues ones. And in many ways, baroque and early music which influenced bluegrass.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#162
post #145
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd encourage you to investigate the link between Clapton and American folk music. I could post links, but I'd just be doing what I'm encouraging you to do - research this a bit.

I mean I realize the link—assuming you're calling american blues "folk", that is—but it's just that, a link, not an identity. Clapton certainly sounds unique. I'm more interested in the fact that he thinks rock & roll is actually a discrete genre rather than a band format. I'm also not a huge fan of Clapton sans Cream OR the Stones, so maybe I just don't like american flavored rock & roll. It didn't really click for…

I'd love to highlight Lynyrd Skynyrd as a prime example of American Rock. I think the link in their music is much clearer.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#163
post #92
post #63

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Generic? Pop? Hmm, I think you must be trolling.

The music industry packaged up singers like Dylan for whichever vertical they needed. Anyone who was able to navigate that system as successfully as he did was certainly not a rebel and the music itself was nothing extraordinarily unique if you look into the long tail of music being made at the time. It's like saying 7-Up is the uncola and you are rejecting the establishment by drinking it instead of Coke.

I think you are looking at things from an incorrect lens here as far as "the system" goes. To give some context, the music industry was a whole different animal when Bob Dylan started in the 1960s. The "establishment" back then could be represented by, say, musicians from the Grand Ole Opry type of tradition, and the long tail end of the crooner / sweet music / big band era. Maybe some of the doo-wop which got popular in the 1950s was kind of "establishment" by then.

Folk along with rock and roll were the rising youth movements of the time and I'm not sure the older generation at the time understood it very well. Today it does seem like much of top pop promoted music is half "written by committee" but I'm not sure that was the case back then (see Frank Zappa's take on this from the eighties, which I personally think is even more true today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP4wsURn3rw)

Look at the top of the charts from 1962 when Bob Dylan released his first album. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_sin...) There's some R&B and rock for sure but also a heck of a lot of big band / jazz type instrumental (your Kenny Balls, Acker Bilks, David Rose, etc.), some country as well (Johnny Tillotson, Claude King, etc.), and cutesy pop numbers (the "Mashed Potato Time" is #3 for 1962).

The "folk music revival" Dylan started in was also fairly massive in the early 1960s but I would say at the time the top was represented by Peter Paul and Mary and the Kingston Trio (both are on the Hot 100 chart in 1962). Bob Dylan won't appear on the Hot 100 until 1965, #41 for "Like a Rolling Stone". (Of course, Peter Paul and Mary brought Dylan to a national audience with "Blowin' in the Wind".) In 1962 this wasn't even a decade out from when Pete Seeger / the Weavers got tangled in that McCarthyism drama, so it's fair to say that the whiff of anti-establishment the folk revival movement had was a somewhat justified feeling.

Of course, Bob Dylan went well beyond the folk revival. I personally don't get the vibe that Dylan was quite as anti-establishment or political as many of the others in the folk revival, nor do I imagine that he thinks of himself as a "rebel". He's more of a poet plain and simple; what makes him unique is more his words / lyrics than anything else.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#164
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keith Richards and his school buddy, Mick Jagger, bonded by nerding out over American folk music ('Life' is a fun read), including both rhythm and blues and the kind of hillbilly stuff Dylan refers to. So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. It's kind of amazing how rock and roll became so much greater when it was exported and imported.

> So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. Do you hear this in any of their work? I only hear it in "Rocky Racoon", which is one of my least favorite beatles songs as a result. I can't say I'm a fan of Stones-style rock and roll. I'd prefer Led Zeppelin; much less caterwauling and more music.

The same Led Zeppelin that borrowed all those American blues and country riffs throughout their career?

If you educate yourself on American music from the 20s-50s you'll realize the true extent of the influence on the British music of the 60s and 70s. It's a lot more than Rocky Raccoon but if you're ignorant of country music you're not going to hear the guitar licks, drum patterns and vocal inflections that show up in many of the recordings by the Beatles.

There's no shortage of literature on these influences so how about we just leave any additional education on the matter to personal study, eh?

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't upvote this enough. I have a degree in physics, but even so every year around this time for about the past decade I pay more attention to the literature prize, waiting for him to get recognized. The last chapter of Colorless Tsukuru hit me so hard I cried, and immediately went out of my way to get an autographed copy. His novels have certainly helped me transition into adulthood, and I think he definitely des…

I wish I had a reaction as emotional as yours, but I still understand your sentiment. They're quirky, yet so relatable. Ultimately, Haruki literature resonates with the loneliness felt in the cold, detached 21st-century society.

Yeah, I just happened to read that last chapter of Colorless Tsukuru at the right time in my personal life where I could relate directly to just about every sentence, and at the end I just felt empty in a satisfying way, if that makes any sense. Then again, I find that with age I'm becoming more susceptible to melancholic or sappy fiction, even if it's not particularly well done (as in the case of some TV shows).

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#167
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on current American society and especially the election, I would say he effected no change unfortunately.

In the time since Dylan started signing black people went from having very limited rights to winning a presidential elections. Obviously, there are many more factors than Dylan at play, and establishing causality, or the lack of thereof, is impossible. But, in my opinion, saying that society has not changed would be a big mistake.

Attributing any of that "progress" to Bob Dylan is a huge reach. He has a lot of fans and reached some segment of the population with his act, but he's basically just another guy peddling records and tap dancing for nickels.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#168
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on current American society and especially the election, I would say he effected no change unfortunately.

In the time since Dylan started signing black people went from having very limited rights to winning a presidential elections. Obviously, there are many more factors than Dylan at play, and establishing causality, or the lack of thereof, is impossible. But, in my opinion, saying that society has not changed would be a big mistake.

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Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That MusiCares speech is a great read if you have 30 minutes to spare. A few favorite bits: On Dylan's immersion in classic folk: >If you sang "John Henry" as many times as me – "John Henry was a steel-driving man / Died with a hammer in his hand / John Henry said a man ain't nothin' but a man / Before I let that steam drill drive me down / I'll die with that hammer in my hand." If you had sung that song as many time…

The MusicCares speech is great; thanks. An interesting excerpt: I learned lyrics and how to write them from listening to folk songs. And I played them, and I met other people that played them, back when nobody was doing it. Sang nothing but these folk songs, and they gave me the code for everything that's fair game, that everything belongs to everyone. Does Dylan allow bootlegging? Are his songs libre? Does he limit…

The labels that distribute his works control that.
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