The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan • Hacker News Board

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#141

Post by tnecniv » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:21 PM UTC

stplsd wrote: post #19

xamuel wrote: post #8

Fantastic! Anyone know if it's the first Literature Nobel given to a pure singer-songwriter? Here are three Dylan songs with big literary value: * "Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts": an amazing example of musical story-telling * "The Ballad of a Thin Man": Some of the most post-modern lyrics ever put to music... * "Like a Rolling Stone": One of the most influential songs of all time

To me it's "It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)" "He not busy being born is busy dying" must be one of greatest lines ever.

"While money doesn't talk, it swears"

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#142

Post by hackuser » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:21 PM UTC

circlefavshape wrote: post #21

Despite being a massive admirer of Dylan's work, I'm not sure that I'm good with this > for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition There's no doubt he did this, but ... do songs count as literature? I'm not really sure they do, and much as I love the songs, the lyrics by themselves don't have anything like the impact (on me at least) of top-notch poetry

> do songs count as literature?

Stephen Sondheim wrote that you can't fit as much complexity into sung lyrics as into read poetry. I wish I had the book in front of me to provide more details, but he reveals a lot about his craft here:

Hat Box

http://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/215415/hat-box-by-st...

(For those not familiar with the genre, many think Sondheim is the great composer of musicals of all time; you might have seen some of his on film, Sweeney Todd and Into the Woods, recently. His lyrics (and stories) are not of the fun, clever, vapid variety often associated with musicals, but brilliant, creative, and multi-dimensional. - For those interested, Company and Sweeney Todd are probably good places to start.)

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#143

Post by efuquen » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #40

jcrei wrote: post #5

Come writers and critics Who prophesize with your pen And keep your eyes wide The chance won't come again And don't speak too soon For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin' For the loser now Will be later to win For the times they are a-changin'.

The rebel became part of the institution in the end. Somewhat sad if you ask me.

I think Dylan would never have called himself a 'rebel' to begin with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guOaI6_cF10

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#144

Post by Ntrails » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:23 PM UTC

Noseshine wrote: post #70

htaunay wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent comment/verse, given the context. Congrats on the insight.

Although listening to that song now I find it somewhat sad and dispiriting, because the "change" that came in the decades following that proclamation, was it really a change? Looking at politics and society? I think of that song in the context of its use in "Watchmen" [0] as more realistic. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUDdQS2UxA

That film is without question my favourite set of opening credits, and honestly I think that short outdoes the rest of the film by an order of magnitude.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#145

Post by duaneb » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:25 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #132

duaneb wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The other half of rock & roll has got to be hillbilly. And that's a derogatory term, but it ought not to be. That's a term that includes the Delmore Bros., Stanley Bros., Roscoe Holcomb, Git Tanner and the Skillet Lickers... groups like that. Moonshine gone berserk. Fast cars on dirt roads. That's the kind of combination that makes up rock & roll, and it can't be cooked up in a science laboratory or a studio. Consid…

I'd encourage you to investigate the link between Clapton and American folk music. I could post links, but I'd just be doing what I'm encouraging you to do - research this a bit.

I mean I realize the link—assuming you're calling american blues "folk", that is—but it's just that, a link, not an identity. Clapton certainly sounds unique. I'm more interested in the fact that he thinks rock & roll is actually a discrete genre rather than a band format.

I'm also not a huge fan of Clapton sans Cream OR the Stones, so maybe I just don't like american flavored rock & roll. It didn't really click for me until Iggy Pop showed up. It didn't feel right to be caught halfway between him and Woody Guthrie—both ends make sense, but the middle sounds terrible to me.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#146

Post by ashkulz » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:30 PM UTC

Am I mixed up too much, am I mixed up too hard

Why am I walking, where am I running

What am I saying, what am I knowing

On this guitar I'm playing, on this banjo I'm frailin'

On this mandolin I'm strummin', in the song I'm singin'

In the tune I'm hummin', in the words I'm writin'

In the words that I'm thinkin'

In this ocean of hours I'm all the time drinkin'

Who am I helping, what am I breaking

What am I giving, what am I taking

But you try with your whole soul best

Never to think these thoughts and never to let

Them kind of thoughts gain ground

Or make yer heart pound

But then again you know why they're around

Just waiting for a chance to slip and drop down

-- Last Thoughts On Woody Guthrie

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#147

Post by pjmorris » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:30 PM UTC

duaneb wrote: post #129

mcphilip wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That MusiCares speech is a great read if you have 30 minutes to spare. A few favorite bits: On Dylan's immersion in classic folk: >If you sang "John Henry" as many times as me – "John Henry was a steel-driving man / Died with a hammer in his hand / John Henry said a man ain't nothin' but a man / Before I let that steam drill drive me down / I'll die with that hammer in my hand." If you had sung that song as many time…

>The other half of rock & roll has got to be hillbilly. And that's a derogatory term, but it ought not to be. That's a term that includes the Delmore Bros., Stanley Bros., Roscoe Holcomb, Git Tanner and the Skillet Lickers... groups like that. Moonshine gone berserk. Fast cars on dirt roads. That's the kind of combination that makes up rock & roll, and it can't be cooked up in a science laboratory or a studio. Consid…

Keith Richards and his school buddy, Mick Jagger, bonded by nerding out over American folk music ('Life' is a fun read), including both rhythm and blues and the kind of hillbilly stuff Dylan refers to. So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. It's kind of amazing how rock and roll became so much greater when it was exported and imported.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#148

Post by duaneb » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:30 PM UTC

anamoulous wrote: post #138

duaneb wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The other half of rock & roll has got to be hillbilly. And that's a derogatory term, but it ought not to be. That's a term that includes the Delmore Bros., Stanley Bros., Roscoe Holcomb, Git Tanner and the Skillet Lickers... groups like that. Moonshine gone berserk. Fast cars on dirt roads. That's the kind of combination that makes up rock & roll, and it can't be cooked up in a science laboratory or a studio. Consid…

Do you like Wilco?

I can't say I'm a huge fan; I prefer the, erm, Iron & Wine style of soft crooning.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#149

Post by ptaipale » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

bzbarsky wrote: post #95

tom_mellior wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's administered by an entirely different organization, in a different country and with different rules and criteria. This part is true, but that's because Nobel explicitly specified it this way. The peace prize is one of the original "real" ones. As opposed to the one for economics, which was made up later by others. (And, well, that contributions to world peace are judged by "different rules and criteria" than p…

You're right that a basic failure here is the way the prize was set up. Unlike the Chemistry, Physics, Physiology or Medicine, and Literature prizes, which are awarded by actual practitioners in those fields, the peace prize is awarded by whatever 5 people the Norwegian Parliament selects that year. Neither these people nor the Parliament selecting them necessarily have anything to do with "work for fraternity betwee…

I don't quite understand how this is failure.

Chemistry, physics, physiology and medicine are sciences that have practitioners. Literature is an art that has practitioners. But peace is not a science nor an art. Nevertheless, Alfred Nobel saw fit to set up the peace prize. The rumor is that he did this because of hurt feelings after being accused of profiting from munitions manufacturing (he made his fortunes through inventions in explosives).

Of course there is a difference in who is doing the awarding. Nobel's decision to give the prize-awarding responsibility to Norwegian parliament might have had something to do with knowing peace activists at the time when Sweden and Norway were approaching the dissolution of their union, and there was fear of war.

I can't really point out any significantly better subject matter experts in working for peace than Norwegian Parliament.

Re: The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 awarded to Bob Dylan

#150

Post by hackuser » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

mcphilip wrote: post #117

fitzwatermellow wrote: post #82

Totally 100% well deserved. Just imagine the 13 year old out there discovering "Masters of War" or "Idiot Wind" for the first time today. Their entire point of view is about to change. Mind upon to hitherto unknowable vistas. Ergo, the absolute benchmark of what Great Literature strives to embody. Also worth checking out is Dylan's controversial speech upon receiving the the MusiCares Person of the Year 2015 award. I…

That MusiCares speech is a great read if you have 30 minutes to spare. A few favorite bits: On Dylan's immersion in classic folk: >If you sang "John Henry" as many times as me – "John Henry was a steel-driving man / Died with a hammer in his hand / John Henry said a man ain't nothin' but a man / Before I let that steam drill drive me down / I'll die with that hammer in my hand." If you had sung that song as many time…

The MusicCares speech is great; thanks. An interesting excerpt:

I learned lyrics and how to write them from listening to folk songs. And I played them, and I met other people that played them, back when nobody was doing it. Sang nothing but these folk songs, and they gave me the code for everything that's fair game, that everything belongs to everyone.

Does Dylan allow bootlegging? Are his songs libre? Does he limit their use or charge royalties? Can I sample one without his permission?