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The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

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Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#111
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn't been for a long time, too. The US discontinued continuous air alert in 1968, when it became apparent that it was just too risky (planes kept crashing with live weapons on board) and ICBMs and SLBMs made it unnecessary. I'm sure it could be restarted now if it looked to be necessary, but it doesn't seem to be.

> It hasn't been for a long time, too If my memory does not fail me, the book COmmand Control claims that it did continue until well in the 90s.

This review of the book just says it was briefly re-activated from time to time, which I don't believe anyone disputes.

> Speaking of heartless and barbaric, Schlosser covers Richard Nixon’s “madman theory,” which he and his close adviser Henry Kissinger developed after Nixon took over the presidency in 1969...

> How to show the world he was a “madman”? Nixon and Kissinger came up with a plan in 1969. They ordered the Strategic Air Command to go on airborne alert for two weeks. “Ignoring the safety risks,” Schlosser notes, “B-52s loaded with hydrogen bombs took off from bases in the United States and flew circular routes along the coast of the Soviet Union. Neither the Soviets nor the Vietcong was fooled by the bluff.”

https://vva.org/arts-of-war/history/command-and-control-by-e...

That occurred after the Thule airbase accident that prompted the end of continuous air alert in 1969.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chrome_Dome

Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#112
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn't been for a long time, too. The US discontinued continuous air alert in 1968, when it became apparent that it was just too risky (planes kept crashing with live weapons on board) and ICBMs and SLBMs made it unnecessary. I'm sure it could be restarted now if it looked to be necessary, but it doesn't seem to be.

> It hasn't been for a long time, too If my memory does not fail me, the book COmmand Control claims that it did continue until well in the 90s.

From my copy:

"The airborne alert program was terminated the day after the Thule accident. The risks no longer seemed justifiable, and many B-52s were now being used to bomb Vietnam."

The Thule accident was, of course, in 1968.

I don't recall there being anything else about a continuous alert being resumed afterwards, but I certainly could have forgotten.

Edit: since we're talking about this book, if anyone is interested in stuff I highly recommend it. The full title is Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety by Eric Schlosser. Available wherever fine books blah de blah blah.

Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#113
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the main things allowing for MAD at this point were the ability of retaliatory ICBMs to launch quickly before incoming weapons destroy them, and the ability for ballistic missile submarines to survive a strike by being hidden, and thus retaliate at leisure. I don't see how hypersonic weapons change either of that. They're not any faster than a missile, so the response time isn't worse, and they don't do any…

A lot of the apparent ambiguity could be resolved by looking at the number of launches and their trajectories: A) there are simultaneous launches against many different targets. Conventional or not, the enemy is trying to remove your ability to retaliate. The implication is clear. B) Only a small number of weapons have been fired off at one or just a few targets. Even if the weapons inflict heavy casualties, your abi…

There's another option as well: have enough redundancy to have substantial forces survive even a massive first strike, absorb it, and then retaliate at leisure. This seems to be the US's approach:

https://www.armscontrol.org/act/1997_11-12/pdd

I imagine other countries with smaller arsenals may not have that option. Even your B may not necessarily be an option, if their command structure relies on centralized control and would be vulnerable to a decapitation strike.

Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the common wisdom here is that no nation has remotely accurate targeting location on US carriers. This hypothetical attack would require intelligence and sensing capabilities that don't currently exist. I'm not saying this isn't possible, but right now you'd have to fly an enemy drone or plane near the carrier group to get any accurate targeting information and that plane would be shot down or jammed well b…

I hadn't heard that point about carriers being hard to track down before, do you have any good links for further reading? If the point about China/Russia increasing their relative punching power vs. the US doesn't feel significantly to you, what about when they are sold on the open market to any country that wants one? Any country in the world being able to take out a carrier would change the way that power is projec…

Here http://lexingtoninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/aircraft-ca... you can find a pretty decent overview of the problem.

Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#115
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the common wisdom here is that no nation has remotely accurate targeting location on US carriers. This hypothetical attack would require intelligence and sensing capabilities that don't currently exist. I'm not saying this isn't possible, but right now you'd have to fly an enemy drone or plane near the carrier group to get any accurate targeting information and that plane would be shot down or jammed well b…

>right now you'd have to fly an enemy drone or plane near the carrier group That's a technique from WWI. For a modern long-distance radar a carrier is like the Sun in the sky (as you would expect from a huge pile of metal on a plain surface). It's too big, and also too "loud" in terms of radio emissions to be stealth.

I'll crosspost the link here, too: [0]

In short, over-the-horizon radars are not exactly precise. AFAIK no OTH radar to date can be used to provide a firing solution, they all are warning/detection radars. They can also be jammed or destroyed, as they are huge and can't be moved or hidden easily. Finally, it's not enough to provide an initial targeting, you also need to guide the missile during its flight as carrier moves and evades. This is a huge problem, given that any signal can and will be jammed.

I think you underestimate how silent the carrier can be.

[0]: http://lexingtoninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/aircraft-ca...

Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't heard that point about carriers being hard to track down before, do you have any good links for further reading? If the point about China/Russia increasing their relative punching power vs. the US doesn't feel significantly to you, what about when they are sold on the open market to any country that wants one? Any country in the world being able to take out a carrier would change the way that power is projec…

Here http://lexingtoninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/aircraft-ca... you can find a pretty decent overview of the problem.

Perfect, thanks.

Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't heard that point about carriers being hard to track down before, do you have any good links for further reading? If the point about China/Russia increasing their relative punching power vs. the US doesn't feel significantly to you, what about when they are sold on the open market to any country that wants one? Any country in the world being able to take out a carrier would change the way that power is projec…

Here http://lexingtoninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/aircraft-ca... you can find a pretty decent overview of the problem.

A quick summary for posterity.

On locating a carrier:

"Few if any nations today possess an assured capacity to track carriers continuously. All of the relevant methods — radar, electronic eavesdropping, electro-optical and acoustic sensors — have major drawbacks such as high cost, vulnerability to preemption, and inability to precisely discriminate. While that may change over time, aggressors will still face a daunting task in penetrating the layered defenses of a carrier battle group."

"The areas in which carriers typically operate are so vast that adversaries would be hard-pressed to find them even in the absence of active countermeasures by the battle group... The most practical way to conduct surveillance over such expanses is with satellites, which have a much wider field of vision than sensors operating inside the atmosphere. However, China does not presently possess military reconnaissance satellites capable of finding a carrier, and the commercial satellites to which it might turn take days or weeks to task and deliver imagery -- making them useless for finding a continuously moving vessel."

On tracking it:

"In order to keep up with the carrier's movements, an attacker must establish a continuous track of the vessel using some combination of land-based, sea-based, space-based and airborne sensors. Moreover, the track must be sufficiently precise so that it can provide targeting coordinates to weapons when they arrive in the carrier's vicinity. As of today, even the United States has difficulty accomplishing such a feat, and no other nation is close to having the requisite capabilities."

"Space-based or airborne radar with the capacity to track moving ground targets (such as the Joint Surveillance and Target Attack Radar System, or JSTARS) has the greatest potential for providing reliable targeting information, because it combines precision with a capacity to operate day or night in all kinds of weather. However, few prospective adversaries are likely to have such systems before the end of the next decade."

Summary: Note that this article is circa 2001, so when they say "few prospective adversaries are likely to have such systems before the end of the next decade", I read that China and Russia could potentially have them now.

So I think there's a strong case for carriers being hard to track historically, but it sounds feasible that large nation-states have gained the ability to do so in the last 5-10 years, and it seems likely that that capability will be democratized further by low-cost commercial imaging (E.g. see SkyBox for the state-of-the-art in civilian high-resolution low-delay satellite imaging).

Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#118
post #7

> However, hypersonic weapons do not need to be nuclear in order to be disruptive, as demonstrated by the United States’ focus on conventional hypersonic weapons. Does China and Russia believe that? It takes a few minutes to swap conventional and nuclear warheads. If anything US is the leader in this new cold war.

It's very difficult to see a scenario where it makes sense to put a nuclear warhead on a hypersonic missile. The fact is, hypersonic missiles are dog slow compared to ICBMs. ICBMs though suffer from the tyranny of the rocket equation (most of the fuel they burn is used to push the rest of the fuel), so the mass of the warhead is a small fraction of the total mass of the rocket (for Trident 2 it's about 7%). The main…

Very informative. However my impression is that US version is ballistic missile with highly maneuverable shuttle as a payload. Article mentions it will be capable to hit anywhere on earth within 30 minutes.

It seems like very very expensive way of bombing terrorists.

Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, would that tactic really have worked or was it just exploiting some less-tested close-battle rules that didn't actually represent reality? As in, those tiny torpedo-boats are incredibly flimsy and a CIWS fires a lot of bullets. When they wrote the rules did they just arbitrarily assign a carrier a certain number of attacks per round? Because four attacks doing d100 damage aren't like one-hundred attacks doing d4…

It doesn't matter how many holes a CIWS can put into a torpedo boat. Once the cruise missiles are in the air, destroying their launch platforms counts for nothing. And it was the cruise missile attack that ruined the carrier strike group as an effective fighting force.

There were a few phases of the battle. There was also a wave of suicide attacks by small boats, and that's what I was referring to. The cruise-missiles seem slightly more reasonable for overwhelming defenses.

The closing speed makes the difference. Which is also complicated for the little boats on the probably rough open seas where they'd encounter the carrier group. Carrier groups travel in miles-wide formations. Even if your first warning was your support-ships getting hit you'd still have minutes to react to the incoming threats. Time to get multiple aircraft up, set the guns to the right mode for targeting ships, etc.

It sounds like its the result of arbitrary rules letting you to attack someone by moving into their hex, etc. I don't think you'd get this result with a real-world battle exercise, where soldiers had to drive the boats tens of miles off-coast in radio silence for a coordinated attack on a hyper-aware enemy.

Re: The Rise of Hypersonic Weapons

#120
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>right now you'd have to fly an enemy drone or plane near the carrier group That's a technique from WWI. For a modern long-distance radar a carrier is like the Sun in the sky (as you would expect from a huge pile of metal on a plain surface). It's too big, and also too "loud" in terms of radio emissions to be stealth.

I'll crosspost the link here, too: [0] In short, over-the-horizon radars are not exactly precise. AFAIK no OTH radar to date can be used to provide a firing solution, they all are warning/detection radars. They can also be jammed or destroyed, as they are huge and can't be moved or hidden easily. Finally, it's not enough to provide an initial targeting, you also need to guide the missile during its flight as carrier…

An interesting link, thank you.
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